I still dont see differences
just saying it doesmn't make it so. Does it?

ok different coil size, but no one seems to be able to say what this
abour (sure delay, all coils have delay and none nows how much except
that it isnt much different from another coil).

coke = pepsi woohoo!

On May 15, 11:40 am, Richard Clark wrote:
On 15 May 2007 10:27:19 -0700, wrote:

Cecil doesnt seem to worry about this error, but just saying it
doesn't actually mean anything without differences. What is different
about his claim and Wests'?

Hi Herbert,

Yeah, I've noticed he's sloughed off your tough questions. The
differences are in the claim of having modeled Wes' helix, he did not,
it is a helix of Cecil's own invention. This is the problem of
leverage sources' credibility: use their name and discard their work
where it conflicts with your own. The differences (as I understand
your desire for actual data content) consist in the wrong pitch and
the wrong diameter. Aside from that, they are identical.

Now, how far can Cecil take a proof using this identity? All the way
within ±CSE (Cecil Standard Error, which as a numeric is 67%). The
world of theory is wide open when you cut yourself that much slack.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

herbert.don wrote:
"coke = pepsi woohoo!"

A loading coil is important to tune out the capacitive reactance of a
too-short whip so that maximum current can be put into the antenna to
get the most RF radiation out.

A loading coil usually has some loss that takes the form of heat
converted from some of the energy pumped into it.

One of the debates here may have been triggered by reference to John
Devoldere, ON4UN`s treatment of "short verticals" in "Low-Band DXing".
He discussed several ways to resonate the too-short vertical antenna.
His Fig. 9-22 on page 9-15 of his 1994 edition became notorious.

ON4UN occasionly characterizes coils as having "degrees" in the space
occupied in the antenna. No one argues that a 1/4-wave vertical does not
have 90 degrees, or that at a given frequency, you could not properly
say a certain linear measure was not equal to a degree. So, if you are
trying to resonate the antenna as a 1/4-wavelength, why not assign the
missing length of antenna, in degrees, to the coil or coils which
replace the missing length of antenna?

The number of turns required of the coil or coils depends on where it or
they are placed in the antenna. A certain number of turns are not
predetermined to represent so many degrees independent of placement.

More than just resonating the antenna, placement of the coil or coils
affects current distribution which affects radiation and loss. Several
problems need simultaneous solution to get the best performance.

I have mostly thought of the velocity of light as being a universal
speed limit. I read long ago that energy is transferred by passing an
impetus along a group of extremely short gap distances through a file of
charges. The individual charges are migrating slowly, if at all, and
going nowhere fast. Speeds greater than the speed of light seemed
inconceivable to me. Researching the loading coil brought me to Kraus
and his helical antenna. On page 253 of the 3rd edition of "Antennas" is
Figure 8-32. For certain coils it shows velocities exceeding the speed
of light. I guess I`m not too old to learn after all.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

On Tue, 15 May 2007 22:02:56 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

On page 253 of the 3rd edition of "Antennas" is
Figure 8-32. For certain coils it shows velocities exceeding the speed
of light.

Hi Richard,

The velocities of what?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark, KB7QHC wrote:
"The velocities of what?"

Figure 8-32 labels the ordinate values as "relative phase velocity".
Phase velocity is defined in my electronic dictionary as:
"The velocity at which a point of constant phase is propagated in a
progressive sinusoidal wave."

In other words, pick a point on a waveform. The rate at which it moves
is phase velocity. That`s the velocity of propagation.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

On Wed, 16 May 2007 08:43:03 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

In other words, pick a point on a waveform. The rate at which it moves
is phase velocity. That`s the velocity of propagation.

Hi Richard,

The velocity of an imaginary point that contains no information nor
energy.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
'The velocity of a point that contains no information nor energy."

The topic of "phase shift" relates to alternating electrical current,
that is volts and amps. These are essential to energy and they are
represented by symbols which are manipulated to solve our problems. A
sinusoidal wave is the symbol of the periodic variation of electrical
properties with time. Volts and amps taken in-phase represent real
energy.

All points on a sinusoidal traveling wave move with the same velocity
past a fixed point. So, to determine the velocity of the motion, choice
of a particular point on the wave, be it zero or peak value, no matter
where the wave travels, or how attenuated, is always the zero or peak
value of the alternation. For velocity, choice of the particular point
to use is immaterial.

The symbol of the wave contains the information. The wave itself
contains the energy.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

On Wed, 16 May 2007 10:57:58 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
'The velocity of a point that contains no information nor energy."

What I in fact said was:
The velocity of an imaginary point that contains no information nor
energy.
in response to:
In other words, pick a point on a waveform. The rate at which it moves
is phase velocity. That`s the velocity of propagation.

My response is still valid in science and technology. Richard, if you
choose to challenge this, cite an explicit reference that says Phase
Velocity contains information and energy. Further demonstrate how
your accrual of these characteristics on Phase Velocity does not then
change it to Group Velocity. It is Group Velocity that propagates
information and energy.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2007 08:43:03 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:


In other words, pick a point on a waveform. The rate at which it moves
is phase velocity. That`s the velocity of propagation.


Hi Richard,

The velocity of an imaginary point that contains no information nor
energy.

Why such criticism of a meager geometrical object with such useful
purpose? It seems your expectations may be too high.

ac6xg

On Wed, 16 May 2007 09:37:17 -0700, Jim Kelley
wrote:

Why such criticism of a meager geometrical object with such useful
purpose? It seems your expectations may be too high.

Hi Jim,

MY expectations are too high? "With such useful purpose" is
overarching by half.

What has Phase Velocity got to do with anything, and what are its
expectations either high or low?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Harrison wrote:
Richard Clark, KB7QHC wrote:
"The velocities of what?"

Figure 8-32 labels the ordinate values as "relative phase velocity".
Phase velocity is defined in my electronic dictionary as:
"The velocity at which a point of constant phase is propagated in a
progressive sinusoidal wave."

In other words, pick a point on a waveform. The rate at which it moves
is phase velocity. That`s the velocity of propagation.

What Kraus may be talking about is the apparent speeding
up of the signal compared to the "threaded bolt" calculation.
When 600 inches of wire is coiled into a helix, how can
EM waves travel through that 600 inches of wire faster than
it can travel through 600 inches in free space? Reckon that
is what he is talking about?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com