Mark Keith wrote:
I'm *still* of the opinion that if you could measure the current INSIDE
the windings of the coil, a couple or three turns in from each end, you
would not see near the difference you all do.

Wes's and my modeling show a smooth current taper through the coil.
Here's the taper predicted by EZNEC through the coil for octcoil1.ez

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/taper1.gif

I do think it's quite normal to have a slight taper, ....

Then you disagree with the guys who say it has no taper. Guess what,
Mark? That puts you on my and Yuri's side of the argument.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil wrote,

Mark Keith wrote:
I'm *still* of the opinion that if you could measure the current INSIDE
the windings of the coil, a couple or three turns in from each end, you
would not see near the difference you all do.

Wes's and my modeling show a smooth current taper through the coil.
Here's the taper predicted by EZNEC through the coil for octcoil1.ez

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/taper1.gif

I do think it's quite normal to have a slight taper, ....

Then you disagree with the guys who say it has no taper. Guess what,
Mark? That puts you on my and Yuri's side of the argument.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


This is an order of magnitude error. In the thirteenth century, the
scholastics would tell their pupils that, since the earth is a ball,
if you build two buildings side by side and use a plumb line to build
each one, the buildings will be farther apart at the top than at the bottom.
Also, if you have a swimming pool with a perfectly flat bottom, the
center will be deeper than the sides because it's closer to the center
of the earth.
No normal people paid any attention to these fellows. The scholastics never
specified
what things meant in terms of real numbers. Cecil says there's a taper but he
doesn't
attempt to say how much. Yuri thinks it's a lot. Cecil seems to agree
with him, but neither fellow has been willing to back his theory with a
$$$$ NEW $$$ [{### IMPROVED ###}] mobile antenna. I think any
rational observer would have to conclude that if Yuri and Cecil are right,
they're only right in the 13th cent. scholastic sense, and that their whole
argument doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tom Donaly, KA6RUH:

The scholastics never
specified
what things meant in terms of real numbers. Cecil says there's a taper but he
doesn't
attempt to say how much. Yuri thinks it's a lot. Cecil seems to agree
with him, but neither fellow has been willing to back his theory with a
$$$$ NEW $$$ [{### IMPROVED ###}] mobile antenna.


Go to www.K3BU.us and look at the article, measurements and pictures.
http://www.k3bu.us/loadingcoils.htm

Cecil explained what's happening, shined some light on it and the work is in
progress to enlighten the flat earth society.
It is not "our theory", it is reality that was described before us by Kraus,
ON4UN and others.

I used the knowledge to design more efficient mobile antenna for 160.

If you understand the current distribution along the loaded antenna, then you
can maximize it for better efficiency (roughly proportional to the area under
the current curve).

Stand by.

Yuri, K3BU.us

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
It is not "our theory", it is reality that was described before us by Kraus,
ON4UN and others.

And demonstrated through actual measurements made by W7EL and W8JI.
It's hard to believe anyone rejects those measurements.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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On 07 Feb 2004 03:46:51 GMT, oUsama (Yuri Blanarovich)
wrote:
I used the knowledge to design more efficient mobile antenna for 160.

What design did you start with and at what efficiency?

What design did you end up with and at what efficiency?

If you understand the current distribution along the loaded antenna, then you
can maximize it for better efficiency (roughly proportional to the area under
the current curve).

What was the improvement in efficiency?

Hi Yuri,

Marketing claims are cheap and I need only pick up a copy of People
Magazine off the newsstand to read them for free.

I've already played the game through modeling using the exact methods
described at your page. Results were less than 1dB; average
difference ran towards 0.5dB. Since that time, the argument has
bloomed to include coils the size of a cadillac on 3/4 wavelength
structures to no greater efficiency gained. I've also seen this
described in terms of half cycles of instantaneous variable phase
*net* current moving in opposite directions through a resistor!
Heating and cooling? ;-)

So, what gets responded to, the efficiency or Cecil's goofball claims?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
So, what gets responded to, the efficiency or Cecil's goofball claims?

Install a one ohm resistor at a current loop. Observe the voltage across
it as a sine wave. Are you saying that the voltage across that one ohm
resistor is not proportional to the current in magnitude with the same
phase? The current is positive for 1/2 cycle and negative for 1/2 cycle.
The sign denotes the direction of current travel in the wire. Have you
used the DC model on AC circuits for so long that you have forgotten
that AC current reverses direction every 1/2 cycle?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:18:26 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
So, what gets responded to, the efficiency or Cecil's goofball claims?

Classic example:
Install a one ohm resistor at a current loop.

Richard Clark wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:18:26 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
So, what gets responded to, the efficiency or Cecil's goofball claims?

Classic example:

Install a one ohm resistor at a current loop.

In many circuits, a one ohm resistor is a negligible amount of resistance
and allows one to view the current waveform on an o'scope. If you like,
use a toroidal pickup coil to view the current waveform. The current
waveform will look the same either way.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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On 07 Feb 2004 03:46:51 GMT, oUsama (Yuri Blanarovich)
wrote:

[snip]
|
|I used the knowledge to design more efficient mobile antenna for 160.


So now it's 0.51% efficient instead of only 0.49% right? [g]

K3BU:
[snip]
|
|I used the knowledge to design more efficient mobile antenna for 160.


KB7QHC:
What design did you start with and at what efficiency?
What design did you end up with and at what efficiency?
What was the improvement in efficiency?

N7WS:

So now it's 0.51% efficient instead of only 0.49% right? [g]


Nope, more like going from not getting answers to my calls or CQ (S0 or less
:-) to getting reports from W6, through P4 to Eu of S6 to S9. Even getting hell
from W8JI for wiping out - QRMing the DX window.
You learned heads figure out the efficiency improvement in dBm, uV or dB or S
units. It may not jive with your decimal points, but is OK with me.

In the past Cecil showed some results from mobile antenna shootouts, where
simple change in position of the loading coil can mean dBs or tens of dBs
difference. Might not be reflected in your modeling results, but reality
speaks. Those who built and used the stuff know it. Those who calculate it
"know better"?

This is getting amusing and eye opening how many flat earth society members are
out there. Keep on harping!

KB7QHC:
Marketing claims are cheap and I need only pick up a copy of People Magazine
off the newsstand to read them for free.


I am not marketing nothing (yet), just defending the truth and reality. YMMV

Yuri, K3BU