RadioBanter - Real time proof of Poyntings vector

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Real time proof of Poyntings vector

I apologize for adding an "n" to Mike Kaliski`s name in my previous
posting. I`m bad, bad, bad,

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

"Richard Harrison" wrote in message
...
Richard Clark, KB7QHC quoted Mike Kalinski`s question: "What do you mean
by equilibrium?"

Richard also asked: 'How do you distinguish directivity from gain?"

Only Art knows what he means by "equilibrium".

Gain, however, is well defined by common usage and defined by experts.
Gain and directivity are close relatives. Terman wrote on page 870 of
his 1955 opus:
"Directive gain depends entirely on the distribution in space of the
radiated power. The power input to the antenna, the antenna losses, or
the power consumed in a terminating resistance have nothing to do with
directive gain. Such factors are taken into account in terms of power
gain of the antenna which is defined as the ratio of the power input to
the comparison antenna required to develop a particular field strength
in the direction of maximum radiation, to the power that must be
delivered to the directional antenna to produce the same field strength
in the same direction. Unless otherwise specified the comparison antenna
is a lossless isotropic radiator."

I`m no longer completely in the dark about Gaussian antennas since
finding pages from St. Andrews University about them on the internet.
It`s an extension of optical principles used at somewhat lower
frequencies in the millimeter and microwave frequency wavebands. All
antennas can be scaled but are not always practical when made larger or
smaller. Until Art comes clean about his ideas, we probably won`t know
the likelihood of his success.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

My first encounter with Gaussian antenna was with microwave relay paths and
"fly swatter" antennas.
A gaussian antenna is on top of the site building rof point straight up. the
beam is then reflected in the desired direction
by the fly swatter reflector that would be at about 300 ft up on a tower.
In this case gaussian antenna meant a parabolic reflector antenna whose
beam was further focused and cohered by a fresnel lens. No resemblence at
all to Arts definition.

Jimmie

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

Richard Clark, KB7QHC wrote:
"That is, Gaussian being wholly divorced from matters of current and
more related to shape distribution?"

Yes. Put your search engine to work on: "Radio & Coherent Techniques".
Probably the first item to pop up will be: Scots_Guide/RadCom/introhtml.
Part 11 of this is "Designing Quasi Optical Circuits". First example in
this is a free space "Gaussian Beam" radiated from the enf of a glass
fiber. Lots of pages and lots of stuff in those pages.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

Jimmie D wrote:
"My first encounter with Gaussian antenna was with microwave relay paths
and "flyswatter" antennas."

We called them periscope systems. Nice because instead of a waveguide
loss, the periscope gave a gain over the dish alone. The reflector at
the tower top has a cupping adjustment to refocus the energy thus
boosting the gain.

When satellite systems appeared, the FCC started to lean on private
microwave users to replace existing periscopes with "high-performance"
dishes at tower tops. Long after we complied, I noticed FAA relay
systems still using periscopes.

Part of the problem with periscopes, I believe, is the common practice
to use tower top reflectoers that are too small, for economy and
performance. Part of the would-be illumination is allowed to fall
outside the surface of the reflector. This boosts gain of the periscope
as the outside ring of the illumination is out-of-phase with that in the
center. I don`t know about Gaussian dishes, but maybe they concentrate
in-phase energy in a narrow beam and eliminate the out-of-phase energy.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

On 8 Jun, 06:31, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
Richard Clark, KB7QHC wrote:

"That is, Gaussian being wholly divorced from matters of current and
more related to shape distribution?"

Yes. Put your search engine to work on: "Radio & Coherent Techniques".
Probably the first item to pop up will be: Scots_Guide/RadCom/introhtml.
Part 11 of this is "Designing Quasi Optical Circuits". First example in
this is a free space "Gaussian Beam" radiated from the enf of a glass
fiber. Lots of pages and lots of stuff in those pages.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

I also did a search also on "Gaussian antenna" in Google and
was quite surprised that many of the groups comments were
appearing at the beginning.
I thought Google listed stuff based on activity around the World/net
on the number of people looking up the subject. True it does
describes
the activity as "high" with respect to the subject,
but to get close to the top of the listing shows that there is
silent
interest in the comments coming from the experts in this group.
This ofcourse delights me as the group is now supplying to the World
a window on its intelligence with respect to various subjects.
Keep up the good work. Your efforts are being rewarded and your
comments are providing high activity. As far as the difficulty
that the word "equilibrium" presents to some of the old guys
I am sure others may have use Google to resolve this sticky problem
Some may have looked at the work of the Masters and when seeing
constant use of this word got completely muddled up with respect
to what that word really meant. That really messed up their
interpretation
of the laws and observations stated. For the life of me I cannot
understand
how these people view themselves as experts yet acknoweledge that they
have no understanding of the word. To me it echoes those words once
said about education. All can learn but to understand is another
matter!
Without the understanding of the meaning of " equilibrium" how does
one interprete "conservative" or "non conservative" fields?
What laws of the Masters evoke removal of "equilibrium" from their
findings?
Maybe there is a true scholar out there that will describe to radio
amateurs
what holds the World together and where "equilibrium" fits in.
Old timers require that this problem be solved to see how this fits
in with
the teachings of the psuedo experts that reside on nearby couches.
Art

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

Art wrote:
"Without the understanding of the meaning of "equilibrium" how does one
interpret "comservative" or non conservative fields?"

Equilibrium: Synonym=balance

We know balanced antennas have the same impedance between each side of
the antenna and the earth or some other chosen groundpoint.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 01:44:06 +0100, "Mike Kaliski"
wrote:

As a result of searches into gaussian antennae, it quickly became
apparent
that commercial versions of these devices are being manufactured for use
at
GHz frequencies.

Hi Mike,

Your research would be evidence of substantial "prior art." However,
all previous contexts suggest otherwise and your research bears no
relation to the topic - as described to this point by Arthur.

These designs all seem to use modified horns as the
transmitting element.

This fairly cements the disconnect.

I have not yet found a device made up of discrete
elements. At these sorts of frequencies, discrete element lengths may
well
be all pretty much the same dimensions.

Well, I have a Radar background too, and horns are hardly resonant and
are more designed for a match without fringing effects. To accomplish
this they deliberately employ a sweep of dimensions, not one single
but replicated dimension as is suggested by Arthur's descriptions.

I suspect equilibrium may not be the
right term to use but resonance is obviously not quite right either.

Equilibrium has long been a term of vague parentage. Resonance is
hardly a tripping point until you come to phase relationships. As
phase is the name of the game in gain/directivity, and multiple phase
relationships even more; then resonance occurs for at least one
element. However, it is not always necessary as revealed with
Rhombics which are non-resonant but exceedingly directional. Resonance
is more a desirable attribute for feeding the antenna. The upshot of
it all is that your last statement reveals how nebulous the topic is.

Arthur
may be unwilling to give out too many details of his antenna, perhaps
because he wants to protect any future patent application. I inferred the
spread spectrum usage from the types of communication links that are
being
developed for wi-fi and other links at these super high frequencies.

As antenna design is scaleable, application defines what is needed,
not what is possible.

I do
not make a distinction between directivity and gain because I believe
that
the term 'gaussian' essentially implies a single transmission lobe.

This would suggest that your research (noted above) led you to
geometric descriptions of lobe attributes. Arthur has never used the
term Gaussian in that sense. If he had, it would be distinct from
Lambertian - another term unused which again draws the distinction
away from geometry.

Arts' antenna may be built and may perform as he predicts. If it doesn't
then we will all have learned from the experience whatever the outcome.
That
is the principle of scientific advancement.

Standard modeling programs have been proven robust in this regard. The
Status Quo has been maintained throughout. No surprises yet.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard,

Don't disagree with any of the above and of course the radar horn acts
primarily as an impedence match. Radar 101. Whatever was I thinking - the
brain does silly things at times.

Mike G0ULI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

"Richard Harrison" wrote in message
...
I apologize for adding an "n" to Mike Kaliski`s name in my previous
posting. I`m bad, bad, bad,

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard,

You are just very naughty. Useful post though and thanks for the apology.

Mike G0ULI

Real time proof of Poyntings vector

On 8 Jun, 09:32, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
Art wrote:

"Without the understanding of the meaning of "equilibrium" how does one
interpret "comservative" or non conservative fields?"

Equilibrium: Synonym=balance

We know balanced antennas have the same impedance between each side of
the antenna and the earth or some other chosen groundpoint.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Bravo !!!! I recognise your improvement in education. Now you have
to
work on your "understanding" of what you read in the book and maybe
now revise your previous posts on the meaning of "equilibrium".
Or buy another book. On the other hand fix those senior moments
that appear to be increasing