I have spent a considerable amount of time in researching the above
subject
as a result of some comments made regarding Gauss's law of Statics
and its connection to the above Poynting's Vector. I have not yet
found
a description of an actual proof similar to described by the Gaussian
Antenna
and have found a number considerable number of " attempts" to provide
such a proof on the internet. But as yet none have been found as
substantial
as a clustered radiated elements in equilibrium.
What I did find was a indepth explanation of electro magnetism by
Harvey
on the net that discusses antenna radiation from it's beginnings
together
with past untruths that are put under the microscope. These papers may
not
be equal to what is presently understood by scholars but never the
less
I thought I would share it with the antenna and radiation minded
people
of this group.. If somebody knows of the existence of a real time
proof
of Poynting's Vector i.e by a bench experiment I would apreaciate a
pointer to where it can be seen
Ofcourse if there are some comments to be made on the Harvey papers
this would be a good place to put them.
Art

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have spent a considerable amount of time in researching the above
subject
as a result of some comments made regarding Gauss's law of Statics
and its connection to the above Poynting's Vector. I have not yet
found
a description of an actual proof similar to described by the Gaussian
Antenna
and have found a number considerable number of " attempts" to provide
such a proof on the internet. But as yet none have been found as
substantial
as a clustered radiated elements in equilibrium.
What I did find was a indepth explanation of electro magnetism by
Harvey
on the net that discusses antenna radiation from it's beginnings
together
with past untruths that are put under the microscope. These papers may
not
be equal to what is presently understood by scholars but never the
less
I thought I would share it with the antenna and radiation minded
people
of this group.. If somebody knows of the existence of a real time
proof
of Poynting's Vector i.e by a bench experiment I would apreaciate a
pointer to where it can be seen
Ofcourse if there are some comments to be made on the Harvey papers
this would be a good place to put them.
Art

the Poynting vector is nothing but a way to represent power in 3 dimensions.
That is it, nothing more, no magic, nothing worth proving, just a simple
statement of energy flowing through a surface. Now if you could prove it
wrong that might be interesting, but otherwise it follows directly from
conservation of energy and obeys all the related laws.

On 6 Jun, 15:57, "Dave" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

ups.com...



I have spent a considerable amount of time in researching the above
subject
as a result of some comments made regarding Gauss's law of Statics
and its connection to the above Poynting's Vector. I have not yet
found
a description of an actual proof similar to described by the Gaussian
Antenna
and have found a number considerable number of " attempts" to provide
such a proof on the internet. But as yet none have been found as
substantial
as a clustered radiated elements in equilibrium.
What I did find was a indepth explanation of electro magnetism by
Harvey
on the net that discusses antenna radiation from it's beginnings
together
with past untruths that are put under the microscope. These papers may
not
be equal to what is presently understood by scholars but never the
less
I thought I would share it with the antenna and radiation minded
people
of this group.. If somebody knows of the existence of a real time
proof
of Poynting's Vector i.e by a bench experiment I would apreaciate a
pointer to where it can be seen
Ofcourse if there are some comments to be made on the Harvey papers
this would be a good place to put them.
Art



the Poynting vector is nothing but a way to represent power in 3 dimensions.
That is it, nothing more, no magic, nothing worth proving, just a simple
statement of energy flowing through a surface. Now if you could prove it
wrong that might be interesting, but otherwise it follows directly from
conservation of energy and obeys all the related laws.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -

But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.
When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection. After seeing the automatic rejection of
ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome . I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.
What does come thru is that members of this newsgroup state that
the Gaussian antenna has already been invented but fail to point
out the paper on it. Stating that Maxwell provided a connection
by mathematics of the E and H fields is not enough to provide
proof and certainly not without introducing the Gaussian
connection so its use can be seen and verified.
If it has actually been pre invented then there must be a
paper conecting Poynting's vector and Gaussian statics law in
existence rather than a conoctation in mathematics alone but
without qualification, and certainly a reference to it in
Jasik or Krauss. However, members have failed to point out
such a reference where normally they always point to old books
on the subject. It is for this reason I am looking for a
real time proof of the Poynting's Vector because not only
for the mathematical aproach but also for its connection to
Poynting which you for one reject out of hand because of
some gut feeling. If faced with the same problem I have
no doubt you would procede the same way.
Art

"Dave" wrote in message
news:cZG9i.8665$fX4.703@trndny03...

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have spent a considerable amount of time in researching the above
subject
as a result of some comments made regarding Gauss's law of Statics
and its connection to the above Poynting's Vector. I have not yet
found
a description of an actual proof similar to described by the Gaussian
Antenna
and have found a number considerable number of " attempts" to provide
such a proof on the internet. But as yet none have been found as
substantial
as a clustered radiated elements in equilibrium.
What I did find was a indepth explanation of electro magnetism by
Harvey
on the net that discusses antenna radiation from it's beginnings
together
with past untruths that are put under the microscope. These papers may
not
be equal to what is presently understood by scholars but never the
less
I thought I would share it with the antenna and radiation minded
people
of this group.. If somebody knows of the existence of a real time
proof
of Poynting's Vector i.e by a bench experiment I would apreaciate a
pointer to where it can be seen
Ofcourse if there are some comments to be made on the Harvey papers
this would be a good place to put them.
Art

the Poynting vector is nothing but a way to represent power in 3
dimensions. That is it, nothing more, no magic, nothing worth proving,
just a simple statement of energy flowing through a surface. Now if you
could prove it wrong that might be interesting, but otherwise it follows
directly from conservation of energy and obeys all the related laws.



Dave , what kind of idiot are you not accepting Grassian antena theory.
I mean just because every Gaussy antenna array present has proven to be less
efficent than a standard yagi yo find reason not to think it is the greatest
thing since sliced bread. Damned just how thick headed are you? Cant you see
what a great breakthrough Gassious antennas are? 8-))

Jimmie

"I have spent a considerable amount of time in researching the above
subject
as a result of some comments made regarding Gauss's law of Statics
and its connection to the above Poynting's Vector. I have not yet
found
a description of an actual proof similar to described by the Gaussian
Antenna
and have found a number considerable number of " attempts" to provide
such a proof on the internet.

The problem that you have is that the Poynting Vector does not exist as
such, so it cannot be proved. It is nothing more than a mathematical nicety
that happens to yield a vector product that happens to be in the direction
of propagation. It is possible to devise an infinite number of similar
vectors that equally well (or better in some cases) describe the energy flow
through a surface.

There are plenty of derivations of the mathematical relevance of the
Poynting Vector available.

The Poynting Vector is favoured because it is mathematically simple and
describes energy flow adequately in a non-static case.

73
Jeff

On Jun 6, 6:04 pm, art wrote:
On 6 Jun, 15:57, "Dave" wrote:


But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.

Shame on his mess...

When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.

What is a "gaussian" antenna as you consider it?
All the hints I've seen so far point to some kind of array with
all elements the same length.
Fed in equilibrium so you say... :/
What makes that special? Sounds like a perverted driven array
to me.. Something anyone with a crayon, or modeling program
could conjer up various versions till the cows come home.
Why would you need to rewrite proven theory to explain a driven
array?
Seems the performance of driven arrays is already fairly well
known. Even fairly perverted ones... :/

So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection.

A proof for what? Gaussian connection to what?
Who is doing all this whole lot of going on? Enquiring
minds wanna know...

After seeing the automatic rejection of
ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome .

The only ideas that seem to be rejected are the ones that distort
and mangle fairly well known principals.
Yes, I do compare your "gaussian" antenna to be about in
the same league as the E/H antenna because you both use
doo-doo bafflegab to try to "invent" yourselves some kind of new
antenna, which is really just a perverted version of an
existing known antenna.
Your's will actually perform a bit better though, since I
assume the feedline won't do the majority of the radiating,
as is the case with the E/H antenna.
But to me, both of you use what I consider as "doo-doo"
science to try to have some kind of explanation for whatever it
is you are trying to achieve.

I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.

It's not your antenna that is junk science.. It's just a perverted
driven array as far as I can tell.
It's the bafflegab you come up with to give it some kind of
divine level of performance that is junk science..
Just the way you constantly tweak the usual application of the
word "efficiency" is enough to scare many away.
And this "equilibrium" jibber jabber... Wouldn't it be easier to say
they are all fed in phase? Although some of our roving reporters
say you aren't actually feeding all the elements, in phase or not..
Seems to vary from day to day according to what kind of feedback
you get from the previous days posts..
I still wonder why in the heck you care what anyone here thinks
anyway.. I would just build the silly thing if it means that much
to you.
MK

snip
But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.
When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection. After seeing the automatic rejection of
ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome . I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.
What does come thru is that members of this newsgroup state that
the Gaussian antenna has already been invented but fail to point
out the paper on it. Stating that Maxwell provided a connection
by mathematics of the E and H fields is not enough to provide
proof and certainly not without introducing the Gaussian
connection so its use can be seen and verified.
If it has actually been pre invented then there must be a
paper conecting Poynting's vector and Gaussian statics law in
existence rather than a conoctation in mathematics alone but
without qualification, and certainly a reference to it in
Jasik or Krauss. However, members have failed to point out
such a reference where normally they always point to old books
on the subject. It is for this reason I am looking for a
real time proof of the Poynting's Vector because not only
for the mathematical aproach but also for its connection to
Poynting which you for one reject out of hand because of
some gut feeling. If faced with the same problem I have
no doubt you would procede the same way.
Art


Art

I have arrived at this thread rather late but it appears you believe that
you have arrived at an idea for some kind of new antenna which works on the
principle of Poyntings vector and Gaussian statics law.

Poyntings vector refers to the direction of motion of an electromagnetic
wave is is frequently used to calculate power per square metre of an
idealised wavefront impacting on an imaginary surface at an arbitary
distance from an isotropic (single point) radiator. This figure can then be
used to make a comparison with real life antennas to establish directions of
preferential gain or loss.

Gaussian statistics refer to the distribution of typically, power over a
given area or range. Generally more power is concentrated at the centre of a
range with power falling symmetrically either side of a central high point.

Gaussian antennas are currently for sale and used as microwave horns to
modify low intensity radar beams used in intruder detection and door opening
systems. This ensures that the main lobe of power is directed to the most
useful area of detection. These devices typically generate a beam in the
form of a cone shape, with maximum intensity at the centre of the cone.

What you are proposing is a planar gaussian antenna which flattens the cone
into more of a fan shape, displays a flat impedence over a wide bandwidth
and requires around ten elements of different lengths mounted on a boom
support.

I could be wrong, but I believe that you have reinvented the log periodic
antenna. This antenna has a single feedpoint, operates over typically 10:1
bandwidths with flat impedence and requires a minimum of ten elements to
achieve reasonable gain and bandwidth. Log periodic antennae typically have
as many as 30 elements. It was much favoured by the military for it's
ability to transmit a directional beam on any discrete frequency across the
whole of the HF spectrum. The advent of direct satellite communication
equipment has rendered these antennae somewhat redundant because they are
fairly large and require substantial towers and rotators to be used to
maximum advantage. They are still used where reliable, frequency agile,
point to point HF links are required. VHF and UHF versions would be small
enough to be suitable for installation in a typical domestic garden.

No new maths or physics are required to explain how this type of antenna
works and the principles have been well understood for over 50 years. A
Google search for log periodic antenna should reveal a wealth of research
material for you.

Apologies if I have completely misunderstood this thread and you have
invented a completely new antenna design.

Mike G0ULI

On 7 Jun, 06:50, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:
snip





But David, you reject the basics of a Gaussian antenna which is why I
have reservations about your logic tho granted others appear to
agree with you, so I want to read up on it for myself.
When reseaching the net I see numorous attempts to
provide a real time proof for it but nothing as factual as the
Gaussian antenna.So contrary to what you say there is a lot going on
in trying to find a proof for it even tho you at the same time reject
the Gaussian connection. After seeing the automatic rejection of
ANY ideas that represent new ideas in the amateur community I am
beginning to wonder if the E/H antennas is a victim of the same
syndrome . I am coming across many papers that suggest that there
is more to radiation than scholars presently believe so it is
natural to me that amateurs would automatically reject any new
aproach by derisive comments such as junk science or similar.
What does come thru is that members of this newsgroup state that
the Gaussian antenna has already been invented but fail to point
out the paper on it. Stating that Maxwell provided a connection
by mathematics of the E and H fields is not enough to provide
proof and certainly not without introducing the Gaussian
connection so its use can be seen and verified.
If it has actually been pre invented then there must be a
paper conecting Poynting's vector and Gaussian statics law in
existence rather than a conoctation in mathematics alone but
without qualification, and certainly a reference to it in
Jasik or Krauss. However, members have failed to point out
such a reference where normally they always point to old books
on the subject. It is for this reason I am looking for a
real time proof of the Poynting's Vector because not only
for the mathematical aproach but also for its connection to
Poynting which you for one reject out of hand because of
some gut feeling. If faced with the same problem I have
no doubt you would procede the same way.
Art

Art

I have arrived at this thread rather late but it appears you believe that
you have arrived at an idea for some kind of new antenna which works on the
principle of Poyntings vector and Gaussian statics law.

Poyntings vector refers to the direction of motion of an electromagnetic
wave is is frequently used to calculate power per square metre of an
idealised wavefront impacting on an imaginary surface at an arbitary
distance from an isotropic (single point) radiator. This figure can then be
used to make a comparison with real life antennas to establish directions of
preferential gain or loss.

Gaussian statistics refer to the distribution of typically, power over a
given area or range. Generally more power is concentrated at the centre of a
range with power falling symmetrically either side of a central high point.

Gaussian antennas are currently for sale and used as microwave horns to
modify low intensity radar beams used in intruder detection and door opening
systems. This ensures that the main lobe of power is directed to the most
useful area of detection. These devices typically generate a beam in the
form of a cone shape, with maximum intensity at the centre of the cone.

What you are proposing is a planar gaussian antenna which flattens the cone
into more of a fan shape, displays a flat impedence over a wide bandwidth
and requires around ten elements of different lengths mounted on a boom
support.

I could be wrong, but I believe that you have reinvented the log periodic
antenna. This antenna has a single feedpoint, operates over typically 10:1
bandwidths with flat impedence and requires a minimum of ten elements to
achieve reasonable gain and bandwidth. Log periodic antennae typically have
as many as 30 elements. It was much favoured by the military for it's
ability to transmit a directional beam on any discrete frequency across the
whole of the HF spectrum. The advent of direct satellite communication
equipment has rendered these antennae somewhat redundant because they are
fairly large and require substantial towers and rotators to be used to
maximum advantage. They are still used where reliable, frequency agile,
point to point HF links are required. VHF and UHF versions would be small
enough to be suitable for installation in a typical domestic garden.

No new maths or physics are required to explain how this type of antenna
works and the principles have been well understood for over 50 years. A
Google search for log periodic antenna should reveal a wealth of research
material for you.

Apologies if I have completely misunderstood this thread and you have
invented a completely new antenna design.

Mike G0ULI- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thats O.K. Apologies accepted. It gave you a chance to write about
things that YOU wanted to write about.
Cheers and beers
Art

On 7 Jun, 06:50, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:
snip





snip
Art

I have arrived at this thread rather late but it appears you believe that
you have arrived at an idea for some kind of new antenna which works on the
principle of Poyntings vector and Gaussian statics law.

Correct

Poyntings vector refers to the direction of motion of an electromagnetic
wave is is frequently used to calculate power per square metre of an
idealised wavefront impacting on an imaginary surface at an arbitary
distance from an isotropic (single point) radiator. This figure can then be
used to make a comparison with real life antennas to establish directions of
preferential gain or loss.

Correct

Gaussian statistics refer to the distribution of typically, power over a
given area or range. Generally more power is concentrated at the centre of a
range with power falling symmetrically either side of a central high point.

Correct, very muchlike a band pass filter


Gaussian antennas are currently for sale and used as microwave horns to
modify low intensity radar beams used in intruder detection and door opening
systems. This ensures that the main lobe of power is directed to the most
useful area of detection. These devices typically generate a beam in the
form of a cone shape, with maximum intensity at the centre of the cone.

True


What you are proposing is a planar gaussian antenna which flattens the cone
into more of a fan shape, displays a flat impedence over a wide bandwidth
and requires around ten elements of different lengths mounted on a boom
support.
Incorrect. It is a cluster of elements in equilibrium where all
elements
are resonant as is the array in its entirety. I t all ha sbeen well
defined
in past postings on Gaussian antennas


I could be wrong, but I believe that you have reinvented the log periodic
antenna.
Yes you are wrong

This antenna has a single feedpoint, operates over typically 10:1
bandwidths with flat impedence and requires a minimum of ten elements to
achieve reasonable gain and bandwidth. Log periodic antennae typically have
as many as 30 elements. It was much favoured by the military for it's
ability to transmit a directional beam on any discrete frequency across the
whole of the HF spectrum. The advent of direct satellite communication
equipment has rendered these antennae somewhat redundant because they are
fairly large and require substantial towers and rotators to be used to
maximum advantage. They are still used where reliable, frequency agile,
point to point HF links are required. VHF and UHF versions would be small
enough to be suitable for installation in a typical domestic garden.

Correct

No new maths or physics are required to explain how this type of antenna
works and the principles have been well understood for over 50 years. A
Google search for log periodic antenna should reveal a wealth of research
material for you.

I am quite familiar with the antenna concept.
I had a long discussion with the inventor before he retired
Also had a long discussion with Moxon at his last house on
your side of the pond before he died. Both were a
delight to discuss antennas with.

snip

Mike G0ULI- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Regards
Art KB9MZ.....XG

What you are proposing is a planar gaussian antenna which flattens the
cone
into more of a fan shape, displays a flat impedence over a wide
bandwidth
and requires around ten elements of different lengths mounted on a boom
support.
Incorrect. It is a cluster of elements in equilibrium where all
elements
are resonant as is the array in its entirety. I t all ha sbeen well
defined
in past postings on Gaussian antennas


I could be wrong, but I believe that you have reinvented the log
periodic
antenna.
Yes you are wrong



Art

Thank you for your courteous response. I thought I had to be missing
something. It was of course the fact that the cluster of elements and the
array were all in equilibrium and resonant in their entirety. That's the bit
that is obviously causing people problems and upsetting them although I must
confess I don't quite understand the advantages over existing designs. The
antenna is obviously directional and exhibits gain but apparently not at
levels that would render existing antennae obsolete.

Good luck with the project anyway, it makes for an entertaining and
enlightening read.

Mike G0ULI