You are simply comparing two verticals.

I don't see why you say that. One is mounted on the ground with 16 radials,
the other is simply 2 pcs of wire up 60 feet, with 120 degree included angle
in my example, although I can change the angle just by typing over top of the
120 I can make it anything I want.
My point was, a lot of people think that if they put up a vertical, even
taking care to put a good radial field under it, and they get a low angle of
radiation, they have the ultimate single element DX antenna. In fact, when
you take losses into consideration a simple inverted vee beats it at all angle
over 10 degrees and equals it below 10 degrees. I think that is a pretty
significant statement.

Rick K2XT

Rick wrote:
In fact, when
you take losses into consideration a simple inverted vee beats it at all angle
over 10 degrees and equals it below 10 degrees.

The average gain of a 1/4WL vertical monopole
with ground-mounted radials is in the ballpark
of 0 dB in all directions.

The average gain of a horizontal 1/2WL dipole
is in the ballpark of 6 dB in two directions.

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible,
for a vertical monopole to achieve 6 dB gain
in any direction.

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible,
for a horizontal dipole to achieve 0 dB gain
in all directions.

Comparing omnidirectional antennas to directional
antennas is like comparing apples and oranges.
Decide which characteristics are desirable and
erect whatever antenna works best for you.

Hint#1: A five-element Yagi makes a lousy net
control antenna.

Hint#2: A monopole with 120 radials has a lousy
front-to-back ratio.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote
The average gain of a 1/4WL vertical monopole
with ground-mounted radials is in the ballpark
of 0 dB in all directions.

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible,
for a vertical monopole to achieve 6 dB gain
in any direction.
____________

Zero or six decibels with respect to what reference, Cecil?

If that reference is an isotropic radiator, then note that a typical
1/4-wave monopole and buried radial ground system used by commercial,
non-directional AM broadcast stations has an h-plane gain of about 5 dBi.
This value has been confirmed by thousands of groundwave field strength
measurements of such systems going back 70+ years. Also note that the gain
of this monopole over a perfect, infinite ground plane would be only 5.15
dBi, so a broadcast radiator is quite good indeed.

And -- a gain of more than 6 dBi is produced by broadcast monopoles whose
height exceeds 1/4-wave sufficiently. For example, the h-plane gain of a
1/2-wave broadcast monopole system is about 6.6 dBi (6.8 dBi over a perfect
ground plane).

RF

Richard Fry wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote
The average gain of a 1/4WL vertical monopole
with ground-mounted radials is in the ballpark
of 0 dB in all directions.

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible,
for a vertical monopole to achieve 6 dB gain
in any direction.

Zero or six decibels with respect to what reference, Cecil?

Sorry, I had a senior moment - should have been dBi.

If that reference is an isotropic radiator, then note that a typical
1/4-wave monopole and buried radial ground system used by commercial,
non-directional AM broadcast stations has an h-plane gain of about 5
dBi. This value has been confirmed by thousands of groundwave field
strength measurements of such systems going back 70+ years. Also note
that the gain of this monopole over a perfect, infinite ground plane
would be only 5.15 dBi, so a broadcast radiator is quite good indeed.

I was speaking of the typical ham radio 1/4WL monopole.
EZNEC's VERT1.EZ is an example of such an antenna with
a maximum gain of about 0 dBi.

The point was that the average 1/4WL amateur monopole
doesn't equal the maximum gain of an average 1/2WL dipole,
much less the gain of a more directional antenna.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote
I was speaking of the typical ham radio 1/4WL monopole.
EZNEC's VERT1.EZ is an example of such an antenna with
a maximum gain of about 0 dBi.

And NEC shows that such maximum gain occurs at some angle above the
horizontal plane, maybe 20 degrees? NEC also shows zero relative field in
the horizontal plane, and very low values below elevation angles of 10
degrees or so.

But note in the graphic linked below that for broadcast stations using
1/4-wave monopoles, nighttime skywave coverage in the range of 400 to 1,000
miles is provided by radiation in the range of 1 to 20 degrees elevation.
Both theory and practice show that monopole radiation for these conditions
could not be as given in a NEC analysis showing the field at an infinite
distance.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h8...ermanFig55.jpg

The point was that the average 1/4WL amateur monopole
doesn't equal the maximum gain of an average 1/2WL dipole,

It could get very close to it though, with the necessary buried radial
system.

RF

On Nov 6, 6:05 pm, (Rick) wrote:

My point was, a lot of people think that if they put up a vertical, even
taking care to put a good radial field under it, and they get a low angle of
radiation, they have the ultimate single element DX antenna. In fact, when
you take losses into consideration a simple inverted vee beats it at all angle
over 10 degrees and equals it below 10 degrees. I think that is a pretty
significant statement.

Rick K2XT

The only thing is 16 radials is not really what I'd call a good radial
field.
After what I saw here, I don't even consider 32 radials as a very
good
radial field..
But when I elevated the antenna I did the see good DX performance.
It greatly lowers the ground losses to the point just a few radials
will
do the job.
It smoked my dipole on long paths. And as Roy says, I use mainly the
receiver to check, and also I do use an A/B switch..
But I also got plenty of checks on my signal, and of course they
matched the margins I saw on receive. My dipole was not at 60 ft,
but at 36 ft. But to VK land the GP always beat the dipole by
4 S units. And I really doubt raising my dipole to 60 ft would have
been
enough to even the score.
In theory, the ground losses of my GP at 36 ft with four radials
should
have been appx equal to a ground mount with 60 radials.
This on top of the decent ground conditions.
But I also have the advantage of having a clear shot at the horizon
with no clutter in the way. I know the ground/space wave greatly
increased when I elevated the vertical. I could work ground wave on
40m
about 90-100 miles or so. Nearly half way from Houston to San Antonio.
I'd be lucky to do 20 on the dipole.
But another thing... And this may surprise you.. My 40m mobile antenna
is better than my 36 ft high dipole at night if the path is over
800-1000
miles.. Tested it many times to make sure it wasn't a fluke.
I don't know how it would fare on 80m to dx vs the dipole..
Never really tested it. I really don't work that much dx on 80m for
some
reason.. I'm usually working NVIS..
MK

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:05:36 GMT, (Rick) wrote:



You are simply comparing two verticals.

I don't see why you say that.

Hi Rick,

Given you did not specify that the "inverted vee" was completely flat
in the horizontal plane, it must be vertical to the degree it is not
flat.

The dominant polarization of an end-fire "inverted vee" is vertical.

Shy of a complete specification, you are comparing two verticals and
they are both lousy.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC