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Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Richard Clark wrote:
How much power was applied to the network? The minimum that my IC-756PRO would deliver, probably around five watts. The exact power did not need to be known in order to obtain the phase measurements. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:29:29 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote: Richard Clark wrote: How much power was applied to the network? The minimum that my IC-756PRO would deliver, probably around five watts. The exact power did not need to be known in order to obtain the phase measurements. 1W? 5W? 10W? |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:27:06 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote: Richard Clark wrote: What was used as the phase reference? Channel 1 was used for the phase reference for What was the load for Channel 1 input? 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:29:29 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote: The minimum that my IC-756PRO would deliver What load did the source drive? |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Jim Kelley wrote:
That's true only if you assume the desired feedpoint impedance must be the lowest possible value. And I think, as you have pointed out on more than one occasion, the current maximum is not usually located at the feedpoint, where it would otherwise be if the current minimum is located 90 degrees away. The standing-wave current envelope on an ideal transmission line is sinusoidal and the "current maximum" is the current anti-node in the sinusoidal envelope at which point the voltage is in phase with the current. A loading coil is not an ideal transmission line and its "current maximum" is not caused by standing waves. The "current maximum" in the coil is caused by adjacent coupling between the coils and does not occur at a purely resistive point. The current envelope at: http://www.k6mhe.com/n7ws/LoadedAnte...s/image003.gif Is clearly not sinusoidal. Although not shown, the voltage at the current maximum in the coil is not in phase with the current so in this case, the "current maximum" is not a pure resistance, is not the current anti-node point, and is not the resonant point. The current at the bottom of the antenna is in phase with the voltage and the feedpoint impedance is purely resistive. The coil puts a hump in the current which causes the current envelope to deviate from sinusoidal. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Tom Donaly wrote:
I'm not an engineer, so I don't have an engineering comprehension level. Tom, you probably read this posting and replied before you read my posting saying, "Way to go, Tom". You are the only person on the newsgroup who came up with a valid result and I salute you for that. Now replace the 600 ohm line with a bugcatcher coil with Z0=4000 ohms and a VF of 0.02, add a Z0=350 ohm 10 degree stinger and you will understand how base- loaded mobile antennas work. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Richard Clark wrote:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:29:29 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: Richard Clark wrote: How much power was applied to the network? The minimum that my IC-756PRO would deliver, probably around five watts. The exact power did not need to be known in order to obtain the phase measurements. 1W? 5W? 10W? Sorry, your 20 questions are up. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:18:34 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote: Richard Clark wrote: On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:29:29 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: Richard Clark wrote: How much power was applied to the network? The minimum that my IC-756PRO would deliver, probably around five watts. The exact power did not need to be known in order to obtain the phase measurements. 1W? 5W? 10W? Sorry, your 20 questions are up. OK, so you will not adequately support your claim for measurement. On the basis of what has been revealed, however, it shows absolutely no evidence of transmission line behavior. Surprising enough, the sum of those details disclosed comes close to validating Tom's measurement! Sort of a win-win outcome. ;-) I can see how your "plausible deniability" could be part of the Administration's white paper on the Iranian threat. Interviewer: "Do you really see World War 3 and mushroom clouds Mr. President?" the Texan responds: Sorry, your 20 questions are up. Should we try again to see if you, like that other Texan, has a second chance at a legacy? 1W? 5W? 10W? |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:54:38 -0800, Richard Clark
wrote: Should we try again to see if you, like that other Texan, has a second chance at a legacy? 1W? 5W? 10W? Let's just skip this last, 5W is enough, and suggest you proceed to the other lingering question. It may seem tedious, but it is the work of measurement and validation. If you are not interested in valid data, there was no point in buying that scope, much less plugging a circuit into it. One has to imagine that you probably haven't had it calibrated - but even there I would accept it conformed to spec and you would still be treading water. The risk you run in answering these questions is in your responses revealing failure. We have already passed that milepost sometime ago, all that remains is to find out if you drove through the sign saying the bridge was washed out. It would be intriguing to discover how your rig drove 5W through the coil to a 48:1 mismatch. I can well imagine that the insane load detector limited you to 5W, but the detected levels must have been in the microvolts (hard to measure phase shift in the trace bloom). However, these details are lost in the mist of memory, or perhaps you would pull on our heart-strings about crippling arthritis with dragging those "notebooks" open to that page only to suffer through the tears of your poor vision. You might consider digitizing everything so it is searchable, and enjoy the benefits of browsers that are tailored for the impaired. |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Richard Clark wrote:
Sorry, your 20 questions are up. OK, so you will not adequately support your claim for measurement. On the basis of what has been revealed, however, it shows absolutely no evidence of transmission line behavior. If you want evidence of transmission line behavior look at the EZNEC files for: http://www.w5dxp.com/travstnd.gif One file is a coil terminated in its characteristic impedance. The other is the same coil unterminated. Based on your questions, an ordinary prudent man would assume that you are just wasting my time. Next thing is that you will be ragging on me for the number of postings I had to make in answering your questions. If you want transmission line behavior evidence in coils, look at Corum's Figure 2 in section III of his paper. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
A loading coil is not an ideal transmission line and its "current maximum" is not caused by standing waves. It's probably true that ideal transmission lines don't exist in any form. The standing wave in question has both a minimum AND a maximum, whose locations are determined by the relative phase and amplitude of the forward and reflected waves at each position. The "current maximum" in the coil is caused by adjacent coupling between the coils and does not occur at a purely resistive point. How do you propose that this occurs without having an effect on the forward and reflected waves which comprise the standing wave? Although not shown, the voltage at the current maximum in the coil is not in phase with the current so in this case, the "current maximum" is not a pure resistance, is not the current anti-node point, and is not the resonant point. The current at the bottom of the antenna is in phase with the voltage and the feedpoint impedance is purely resistive. It would be better if you provided some sort of demarcation between the well known facts and the pensive speculation in your posts. :-) The coil puts a hump in the current which causes the current envelope to deviate from sinusoidal. What does the IEEE dictionary have to say about 'current humps' I wonder. 73, ac6xg |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Richard Clark wrote:
It would be intriguing to discover how your rig drove 5W through the coil to a 48:1 mismatch. I already reported more than a year ago that it was through an autotransformer. I matched the coil Z0 on both the source end and the load end. I have no doubt that if you catch me in a misspelled word, you will pounce on it and say it proves my measurements were invalid. That's what nonsense we have come to expect from you. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Jim Kelley wrote:
How do you propose that this occurs without having an effect on the forward and reflected waves which comprise the standing wave? It obviously has an effect on the standing wave. In no way can Wes's current waveform be called a cosine function. However, we know that the current and voltage are in phase at the feedpoint and at the tip of the antenna. It is impossible for them to be in phase anywhere else. It would be better if you provided some sort of demarcation between the well known facts and the pensive speculation in your posts. :-) It's all simple physics, Jim, aided by a measured IQ of 168. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On 6 Dec, 13:50, Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote: How do you propose that this occurs without having an effect on the forward and reflected waves which comprise the standing wave? It obviously has an effect on the standing wave. In no way can Wes's current waveform be called a cosine function. However, we know that the current and voltage are in phase at the feedpoint and at the tip of the antenna. It is impossible for them to be in phase anywhere else. It would be better if you provided some sort of demarcation between the well known facts and the pensive speculation in your posts. :-) It's all simple physics, Jim, aided by a measured IQ of 168. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com Ouch Cecil, I think you need to come down a bit! We are not prehistoric mammals when compared to what you perceive your self to be. Do you really want to be a clone of Roy where you can flout yourself as superior to all? You have had your fun with all those wave things that you have foisted upon others but rubbing it in regarding how clever you are compared to other mortals will not allow anger that has festered to decline. Art |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
art wrote:
Ouch Cecil, I think you need to come down a bit! My nephew, who is also a member of MENSA, recently went to a job interview. On his resume, he listed his MENSA membership. The interviewer, who would have been his future boss said, "You're a member of MENSA? You want my job, don't you?" My nephew took the MENSA line off his resume. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote: How do you propose that this occurs without having an effect on the forward and reflected waves which comprise the standing wave? It obviously has an effect on the standing wave. Obviously. The question is, how to reconcile that fact with your statement: "A loading coil is not an ideal transmission line and its "current maximum" is not caused by standing waves." A current maximum would obviously be a prominent feature of standing waves resulting from the superposition of forward and reflected currents. In no way can Wes's current waveform be called a cosine function. Wes who? However, we know that the current and voltage are in phase at the feedpoint and at the tip of the antenna. Assuming it's a resistive antenna, assuming we're talking about forward current. What other assumptions are we missing? It's all simple physics, Jim, aided by a measured IQ of 168. ;-) There. Among the things evidently manifested by an alleged "IQ of 168" are a narcisitic overestimate of ones own abilities and a compulsive need to demonstrate same. What does "its current maximum is not caused by standing waves" mean to someone with an "IQ of 168"? ac6xg |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
My nephew, who is also a member of MENSA, recently went to a job interview. On his resume, he listed his MENSA membership. The interviewer, who would have been his future boss said, "You're a member of MENSA? You want my job, don't you?" My nephew took the MENSA line off his resume. :-) Let him know that Star Trek Fan Club membership isn't something to brag about either. :-) ac6xg |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
... My nephew, who is also a member of MENSA, recently went to a job interview. On his resume, he listed his MENSA membership. The interviewer, who would have been his future boss said, "You're a member of MENSA? You want my job, don't you?" My nephew took the MENSA line off his resume. :-) Yes, I have seen it time and time again ... people are fired for proficiency, IQ, skills, warm personalities, etc. I have seen gifted individuals sabotaged, setup, conspired against, etc. Has made me very slow to react on job performance evaluations given by others on an individual(s.) The idiots of the world have a mission and a lot at stake, they will "kill" competition on sight! This is used as a strong "survival skill" by them ... convince the nephew that there is a lot to be had by "dummying up" at the correct times and places. Sometimes you wonder if this is not the major force at work in large corporations? Regards, JS |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Dec 6, 5:19 pm, Jim Kelley wrote:
Among the things evidently manifested by an alleged "IQ of 168" are a narcisitic overestimate of ones own abilities and a compulsive need to demonstrate same. What does "its current maximum is not caused by standing waves" mean to someone with an "IQ of 168"? ac6xg IQ doesn't mean a whole lot to me.. I've also been tested in the same appx 160+ range.. Big deal.. I'm still basically a redneck dumbass because I never applied myself much in school. I hated school actually, and snuck away every chance I got... :/ I sure never had any interest in trying to join Mensa. What do Mensa groups do anyway? I'm fairly sure whatever they do would be boring to me... :( MK |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
wrote in message ... On Dec 6, 5:19 pm, Jim Kelley wrote: Among the things evidently manifested by an alleged "IQ of 168" are a narcisitic overestimate of ones own abilities and a compulsive need to demonstrate same. What does "its current maximum is not caused by standing waves" mean to someone with an "IQ of 168"? ac6xg IQ doesn't mean a whole lot to me.. I've also been tested in the same appx 160+ range.. Big deal.. I'm still basically a redneck dumbass because I never applied myself much in school. I hated school actually, and snuck away every chance I got... :/ I sure never had any interest in trying to join Mensa. What do Mensa groups do anyway? I'm fairly sure whatever they do would be boring to me... :( MK I went along to a couple of meetings many years ago. Full of under achievers with high IQ's complaining how they weren't being recognised or credited in their exams/career/promotion ladder/etc. You can coast along with a high enough IQ without having to work too hard, but it takes hard work and dedication to achieve anything worthwhile. The top people anywhere in the world are not the smartest, but they learned to use what they have to the maximum and put the hours in. If you expect a high IQ to grant you a short cut to the top, it won't and there are a whole lot of only slightly less intelligent people who know just enough and have a vested interest to stop you from getting there. Mensa is merely a self congratulatory society for smart people who lack the drive to succeed. But don't let that stop you from joining so long as all you expect is the chance of some (reasonably) intelligent conversation at social functions. Well it didn't match up to my standards (or the intelligence that is displayed on r.r.a.a.) so I didn't bother renewing my subscription when it expired. Cheers all, Mike GOULI |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Jim Kelley wrote:
What does "its current maximum is not caused by standing waves" mean to someone with an "IQ of 168"? I explained it already. The current maximum in a loading coil is caused by the magnetic flux linkage between the adjacent coils. It is the same thing that approximately doubles the velocity factor of the coil over what it would be if the all the current followed the wire. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
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Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
"Mike Kaliski" wrote in
I went along to a couple of meetings many years ago. Full of under achievers with high IQ's complaining how they weren't being recognised or credited in their exams/career/promotion ladder/etc. Intelligence is like talent. It is a gift. What you do with it is what is important. Just because you have one or the other is almost irrelevant if you don't have the other tools needed to be sucessful. I feel like such a piker here - I'm only 150........ - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Mike Coslo wrote:
I feel like such a piker here - I'm only 150........ There may be hope. My IQ went up after I took a graduate course in the design of IQ tests. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
On Dec 6, 8:50 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: What do Mensa groups do anyway? They get together, discuss intellectual topics, and then jump into bed. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com Hummm. I hope they don't have hairy legs.. :/ MK |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Mike Kaliski wrote:
... Cheers all, Mike GOULI Unfortunately, autistic people can, quite frequently, score high on IQ tests--however, it is obvious this "gray matter" is not what one is looking for (well, sometimes NOT all that obvious.) However, without the proper gray matter--you can grunt all you want with little progress ... Regards, JS |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: I feel like such a piker here - I'm only 150........ There may be hope. My IQ went up after I took a graduate course in the design of IQ tests. :-) Ahhh, "test smart!", yep, that helps! ;-) Regards, JS |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Mike Kaliski wrote:
wrote in message ... On Dec 6, 5:19 pm, Jim Kelley wrote: Among the things evidently manifested by an alleged "IQ of 168" are a narcisitic overestimate of ones own abilities and a compulsive need to demonstrate same. What does "its current maximum is not caused by standing waves" mean to someone with an "IQ of 168"? ac6xg IQ doesn't mean a whole lot to me.. I've also been tested in the same appx 160+ range.. Big deal.. I'm still basically a redneck dumbass because I never applied myself much in school. I hated school actually, and snuck away every chance I got... :/ I sure never had any interest in trying to join Mensa. What do Mensa groups do anyway? I'm fairly sure whatever they do would be boring to me... :( MK I went along to a couple of meetings many years ago. Full of under achievers with high IQ's complaining how they weren't being recognised or credited in their exams/career/promotion ladder/etc. You can coast along with a high enough IQ without having to work too hard, but it takes hard work and dedication to achieve anything worthwhile. The top people anywhere in the world are not the smartest, but they learned to use what they have to the maximum and put the hours in. If you expect a high IQ to grant you a short cut to the top, it won't and there are a whole lot of only slightly less intelligent people who know just enough and have a vested interest to stop you from getting there. Mensa is merely a self congratulatory society for smart people who lack the drive to succeed. But don't let that stop you from joining so long as all you expect is the chance of some (reasonably) intelligent conversation at social functions. Well it didn't match up to my standards (or the intelligence that is displayed on r.r.a.a.) so I didn't bother renewing my subscription when it expired. Cheers all, Mike GOULI Considering that our president has the I.Q. of the slowest learner in the slow learners class at the local obedience school, it's obvious it doesn't take intelligence to get ahead in life. Truman and Nixon weren't much better. From what I've read, intelligence tests were invented in France to identify students with learning problems in order to give them additional attention. When the test got to the U.S. it was immediately used as a way to stratify society. One of the chief fellows behind the American effort was a Stanford academic named Lewis Madison Terman, who, of course, was awesomely intelligent by definition. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Mike Coslo wrote:
"Mike Kaliski" wrote in I went along to a couple of meetings many years ago. Full of under achievers with high IQ's complaining how they weren't being recognised or credited in their exams/career/promotion ladder/etc. Intelligence is like talent. It is a gift. What you do with it is what is important. Just because you have one or the other is almost irrelevant if you don't have the other tools needed to be sucessful. I feel like such a piker here - I'm only 150........ - 73 de Mike N3LI - That's o.k. It just means you think less like Terman than some of the others in this group do. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
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Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
art wrote:
On 6 Dec, 13:50, Cecil Moore wrote: Jim Kelley wrote: How do you propose that this occurs without having an effect on the forward and reflected waves which comprise the standing wave? It obviously has an effect on the standing wave. In no way can Wes's current waveform be called a cosine function. However, we know that the current and voltage are in phase at the feedpoint and at the tip of the antenna. It is impossible for them to be in phase anywhere else. It would be better if you provided some sort of demarcation between the well known facts and the pensive speculation in your posts. :-) It's all simple physics, Jim, aided by a measured IQ of 168. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com Ouch Cecil, I think you need to come down a bit! We are not prehistoric mammals when compared to what you perceive your self to be. Do you really want to be a clone of Roy where you can flout yourself as superior to all? You have had your fun with all those wave things that you have foisted upon others but rubbing it in regarding how clever you are compared to other mortals will not allow anger that has festered to decline. Art Relax, Art. Cecil has just provided us with the size of his fuel tank. He hasn't told us if it is full or near the "E" mark. Dave K8MN |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
art wrote: Ouch Cecil, I think you need to come down a bit! My nephew, who is also a member of MENSA, recently went to a job interview. On his resume, he listed his MENSA membership. The interviewer, who would have been his future boss said, "You're a member of MENSA? You want my job, don't you?" My nephew took the MENSA line off his resume. :-) I'd be interested in hearing why people bother to join MENSA and why they'd attend meetings. Where's the fulfillment in standing around in a room full of folks congratulating each other on how smart they are? It isn't the numbers in your IQ which are important, Cecil, it is what you do with 'em. Dave K8MN |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Dave Heil wrote:
... I'd be interested in hearing why people bother to join MENSA and why they'd attend meetings. ... Dave K8MN Because they are interested in what is said, rather than who said it--something which you will NEVER understand--give up now ... JS |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: What do Mensa groups do anyway? They get together, discuss intellectual topics, and then jump into bed. :-) So the meetings tire them out? Dave K8MN |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Mike Coslo wrote:
"Mike Kaliski" wrote in I went along to a couple of meetings many years ago. Full of under achievers with high IQ's complaining how they weren't being recognised or credited in their exams/career/promotion ladder/etc. Intelligence is like talent. It is a gift. It can be more like a curse. There's nothing quite like a number of teachers telling Junior's parents that Junior is gifted. What you do with it is what is important. Just because you have one or the other is almost irrelevant if you don't have the other tools needed to be sucessful. I feel like such a piker here - I'm only 150........ You don't look that old, Mike. Dave K8MN |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
John Smith wrote:
Dave Heil wrote: ... I'd be interested in hearing why people bother to join MENSA and why they'd attend meetings. ... Dave K8MN Because they are interested in what is said, rather than who said it--something which you will NEVER understand--give up now ... You can't tell me that these mental sharpies can remember what was said, but not who said it, "John". I'd prefer hearing a few things of worth than a lot of things of little worth. Dave K8MN |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Dave Heil wrote:
[his usual] Dave K8MN Means it is acknowledgment of the worth of principals, practices and knowledge ... as opposed to hero worship which, strangly, looks akin to the silly cheerleaders worshiping the football players in high school (or, don't get your shorts in a tizzy over personalities)--but like I said, I am sure all this is well above your head ... I am sorry, I just can't put it in simpler terms for you to digest. JS |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
Dave Heil wrote:
... It can be more like a curse. There's nothing quite like a number of teachers telling Junior's parents that Junior is gifted. ... Dave K8MN WOW, deja vu, I have seen parents beat down children because the lesser intellect-ed parent feels threatened, lessened, unimportant (and usually, rightly so)--this is a sorry thing to watch in a workplace. To watch it occur in a family is nothing less than utterly disgusting. So much opposed to the wholesome and functional family which devotes all to the importance of the individual and encouragement of the youngsters to out achieve the parents ... Where was/is child protective services when the kids need 'em? If one is a control freak, keeping silent on these affairs allows one to keep their illness hidden ... the terms you use are a dead give away. JS |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
John Smith wrote:
Dave Heil wrote: [his usual] Dave K8MN Means it is acknowledgment of the worth of principals, practices and knowledge ... as opposed to hero worship which, strangly, looks akin to the silly cheerleaders worshiping the football players in high school (or, don't get your shorts in a tizzy over personalities)--but like I said, I am sure all this is well above your head ... I am sorry, I just can't put it in simpler terms for you to digest. "John", I'm sorry you're having difficulties in making it more simple. So you'd have me believe that you're a MENSA member? Do you attend under your pseudonym? Did you, by the way, mean "principles" or did you really intend the word "principals"? That's very "strang". Dave K8MN |
Loading Coils; was : Vincent antenna
John Smith wrote:
Dave Heil wrote: ... It can be more like a curse. There's nothing quite like a number of teachers telling Junior's parents that Junior is gifted. ... Dave K8MN WOW, deja vu, I have seen parents beat down children because the lesser intellect-ed parent feels threatened, lessened, unimportant (and usually, rightly so)--this is a sorry thing to watch in a workplace. To watch it occur in a family is nothing less than utterly disgusting. Wow, "John", you managed to read in some things never written by me. I wrote nothing of parents being threatened, lessened or feeling unimportant. I've never watched any parents exhibiting such practices in their or a child's workplace either. The curse is that the parents often place unreasonable expectations for success on a child marked as gifted. You must feel like a fool right about now. So much opposed to the wholesome and functional family which devotes all to the importance of the individual and encouragement of the youngsters to out achieve the parents ... What is so much opposed, "John"? Where was/is child protective services when the kids need 'em? Why would such an agency be needed, "John"? If one is a control freak, keeping silent on these affairs allows one to keep their illness hidden ... the terms you use are a dead give away. I think you might have been better served not to comment on things not written, "John". JS |
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