AI4QJ wrote:
If it were possible for the source to provide DC
current at c, then the DC current moves at c.

The step function from zero to DC contains a lot
of frequencies. I suspect photons are involved
at the leading edge of the DC pulse.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Dec 14, 9:40 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
AI4QJ wrote:
If it were possible for the source to provide DC
current at c, then the DC current moves at c.

The step function from zero to DC contains a lot
of frequencies. I suspect photons are involved
at the leading edge of the DC pulse.

"Suspect" -- Perhaps like Inspector Clouseau?

Humour aside, for transmission lines you should
stick to charge, and distributed capacitance and
inductance. This model is aptly capable and has
no difficulties as the frequency drops so low that
it becomes indistinguishable from DC.

Why bother with photons? Only at the leading
edge, you say. What explains the rest?

Where is the energy stored? In the capacitance
and inductance. Why not use the tools that work?

Why try to force fit photons?

....Keith

Keith Dysart wrote:
Why bother with photons?

Because it is impossible for electrons to move
fast enough to explain the measured results.
There is indeed a "DC" *wavefront* moving at
the speed of light adjusted for VF. Electrons
cannot move that fast. What is happening is
that fast photons are skipping from slow electron
to slow electron.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Dec 14, 11:10 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Keith Dysart wrote:
Why bother with photons?

Because it is impossible for electrons to move
fast enough to explain the measured results.
There is indeed a "DC" *wavefront* moving at
the speed of light adjusted for VF. Electrons
cannot move that fast. What is happening is
that fast photons are skipping from slow electron
to slow electron.

Do photons also explain how sound can move
at a 1000 ft/s, while the air molecules barely
move at all?

No? Not clear then why they are needed for
electrons.

....Keith

Keith Dysart wrote:
Do photons also explain how sound can move
at a 1000 ft/s, while the air molecules barely
move at all?

No, mechanical longitudinal waves are well understood.
It is impossible for them to achieve the speed of light.

No? Not clear then why they are needed for
electrons.

Do you think electrons support mechanical waves?
The fields of TEM waves consist of photons traveling
at the speed of light.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
No, mechanical longitudinal waves are well understood.
...

Indeed, I wonder if there is really anything else ...

Although Einstein "debunked" (and, we may even have to revisit this at a
later date) the "luminous ether", he granted the existence of the
"gravitational ether", one way or another, how those em waves-photons
"propagate", they do it in some form of ether ...

Show me an equation which takes that into consideration--I will grant we
are finally close to the right path ...

Regards,
JS

On Dec 14, 1:52 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Keith Dysart wrote:
Do photons also explain how sound can move
at a 1000 ft/s, while the air molecules barely
move at all?

No, mechanical longitudinal waves are well understood.
It is impossible for them to achieve the speed of light.

Non-sequitor.

No? Not clear then why they are needed for
electrons.

Do you think electrons support mechanical waves?

Simplicity itself. Electrons are charged. Like charges
repel. Move an electron and the next electron will tend
to move away.

The fields of TEM waves consist of photons traveling
at the speed of light.

I've been told that near the antenna, there are just
varying electric and magnetic fields and that some
distance from the antenna the electro-magnetic
wave forms. How does the varying field turn into a
photon? At what point? Where does the simply
varying field end and the photons begin? Or does
the antenna emit photons?

....Keith

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:09:59 -0800 (PST), Keith Dysart
wrote:

Do photons also explain how sound can move
at a 1000 ft/s, while the air molecules barely
move at all?

No, because those are called Phonons.

No? Not clear then why they are needed for
electrons.

Phonons and Photons both interact with Electrons as well as with each
other.

Following Cecil's fluff isn't very productive.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Keith Dysart wrote:
On Dec 14, 9:40 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
AI4QJ wrote:
If it were possible for the source to provide DC
current at c, then the DC current moves at c.
The step function from zero to DC contains a lot
of frequencies. I suspect photons are involved
at the leading edge of the DC pulse.

"Suspect" -- Perhaps like Inspector Clouseau?

Humour aside, for transmission lines you should
stick to charge, and distributed capacitance and
inductance. This model is aptly capable and has
no difficulties as the frequency drops so low that
it becomes indistinguishable from DC.

Why bother with photons? Only at the leading
edge, you say. What explains the rest?

Where is the energy stored? In the capacitance
and inductance. Why not use the tools that work?

Why try to force fit photons?

....Keith

If we look at a tree from the north side, and then look at the same tree
from the south side, we have looked at only one tree but we have seen it
from two perspectives.

Zo = sq. rt. L/C = 1/cC

Inductance can be described as L = 1/((c^2)*C) (inductance per length)

So is the energy stored in the inductance or in the capacitance.

Two ways of looking at the same tree.

73, Roger, W7WKB

On Dec 14, 9:40 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
AI4QJwrote:
If it were possible for the source to provide DC
current at c, then the DC current moves at c.

The step function from zero to DC contains a lot
of frequencies. I suspect photons are involved
at the leading edge of the DC pulse.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Right, the step function has a number of sinusoids associated with it
which are affected by Zo and that was already addressed. Richard's
challenge was to address the velocity of DC at steady state, after the
transients from the step died down.