On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:53:49 GMT, ml wrote:

I've been using a dipole antenna about 30ft each side connected to a
sgc tuner with about 5ft of ladderline . this is mounted on my roof's
elevator shack.

Hi Myles,

You first need to differentiate between radiated noise and conducted
noise - you obviously know where the source is.

To conducted noise:

Does the SGC share the same ground as the switching loads for the
elevator? If so, you want to find another ground. ANOTHER ground? A
jillion floors above earth? What does ground mean in that context?

The path for the motors' heavy current is through a wire. That wire
has resistance (however small). The current through that resistance
elevates "ground" above the normally placid and noiseless ground with
a hash of voltage noise that goes right into anything SHARING that
path (and also having alternative paths to the same ground - it is
quite common).

Finding another ground can be approached through two ways: randomly,
or analytically. Analytically can be masked by failures due to what
is perceived to be ground (that is how this all began). Randomly
dooms you to useless repetition in the guise of a new choice being a
different choice (often quite rare). Random has the benefit of being
quick and luck may come your way suddenly (it can also vanish just as
fast when something changes - this how all this began).

Analytically: Where do you ground things on top of the elevator shed?
Move that to wire it to a more remote point. If you don't ground
anywhere on the roof, then we move on:

To consider radiated noise:

This is the same noise being coupled through the air. If you don't
ground at the roof, then you might have long conductors that run in
close proximity to the heavy current burdened wires of the motors. If
so, then you will want to choke your wires going down to your shack.
ALL OF THE WIRES GOING TO YOUR SHACK. You may need to do this
repeatedly along their length. You are going to get an education in
Ferrites if this proves to be the solution.

As an aside:
the new stuff i ckt
boards inside of metal boxes
If you can, closely examine those boxes to see if they have a separate
ground wire. Follow it where ever it might go. This might identify a
quiet ground, or a noisy ground point for you to try to tie into as
part of your experimentation. Similarly, If you can, closely examine
those motors to see if they have a separate ground wire. See if they
go anywhere you can use, or avoid as the conditions of experimentation
reveals.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

In article ,
Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:53:49 GMT, ml wrote:

I've been using a dipole antenna about 30ft each side connected to a
sgc tuner with about 5ft of ladderline . this is mounted on my roof's
elevator shack.

Hi Myles,

You first need to differentiate between radiated noise and conducted
noise - you obviously know where the source is.

To conducted noise:

Does the SGC share the same ground as the switching loads for the
elevator? If so, you want to find another ground. ANOTHER ground? A
jillion floors above earth? What does ground mean in that context?

The path for the motors' heavy current is through a wire. That wire
has resistance (however small). The current through that resistance
elevates "ground" above the normally placid and noiseless ground with
a hash of voltage noise that goes right into anything SHARING that
path (and also having alternative paths to the same ground - it is
quite common).

Finding another ground can be approached through two ways: randomly,
or analytically. Analytically can be masked by failures due to what
is perceived to be ground (that is how this all began). Randomly
dooms you to useless repetition in the guise of a new choice being a
different choice (often quite rare). Random has the benefit of being
quick and luck may come your way suddenly (it can also vanish just as
fast when something changes - this how all this began).

Analytically: Where do you ground things on top of the elevator shed?
Move that to wire it to a more remote point. If you don't ground
anywhere on the roof, then we move on:

To consider radiated noise:

This is the same noise being coupled through the air. If you don't
ground at the roof, then you might have long conductors that run in
close proximity to the heavy current burdened wires of the motors. If
so, then you will want to choke your wires going down to your shack.
ALL OF THE WIRES GOING TO YOUR SHACK. You may need to do this
repeatedly along their length. You are going to get an education in
Ferrites if this proves to be the solution.

As an aside:
the new stuff i ckt
boards inside of metal boxes
If you can, closely examine those boxes to see if they have a separate
ground wire. Follow it where ever it might go. This might identify a
quiet ground, or a noisy ground point for you to try to tie into as
part of your experimentation. Similarly, If you can, closely examine
those motors to see if they have a separate ground wire. See if they
go anywhere you can use, or avoid as the conditions of experimentation
reveals.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Dear Rich

Thanks very much!! Gave me a lot of things to study n try

Happy new years


I didn't have any roof ground options did in my apt, my first
experiment was to put the antenna on a test rig(817) by itself on
battery same exact problem

disconnecting the ant at roof kills the noise so i presume most if
it is picked up via antenna not sure if this was scientific seems
true thou

Getting inside that room thou or once inside the cabnets might prove
difficult the building considers the new work up there as sacrade
grounds now they didn't even paint the room, and can't figure this
one out, took out the 120v outlet that used to be on the wall for
service not even sure thats legal (code) but certainly inconvient

so what i saw from looking in the window didn't tell me anything about
grounds but an execellent idea i overlooked, i can see their
cabinets are connected via metal conduit so i presume there is some
ground made couldn't tell of the motors the wires are in a conduit
that seems to go tothe motor so i can't see any actual connections

i was always guessing it wasn't the motor since the noise will occur
even if the motor isn't turning however i understand now that it could
be either an antenna or energized during it's still moments

the motors are closest to my antena and the cabinets are furthest and
at right angles perp however the entire room is only 15x15


i just can't figure why the noise isn't constant thou or exactly
intermittant ie it can be on 3 off 2 on 4 off 7

thanks very much Rich!!

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:36:14 GMT, ml wrote:

Dear Rich

Thanks very much!! Gave me a lot of things to study n try

Happy new years


I didn't have any roof ground options did in my apt, my first
experiment was to put the antenna on a test rig(817) by itself on
battery same exact problem

Hi Myles,

Good. I would still implore you to consider that ground can arrive on
the rig through numerous side paths. You say it was on battery power,
but is that battery served with a floating charger? Possible path to
ground there. Do you use an external keyer with an external power
supply (wall wart)? Possible path to ground there. Is your rig
connected to your computer for any reason? Possible path to ground
there. And so on....

disconnecting the ant at roof kills the noise so i presume most if
it is picked up via antenna not sure if this was scientific seems
true thou

No problem with "scientific method" here, none at all. Unlike the
armchair theorists busily pounding conventional thinking into the dust
of other threads, you pursuits are vastly more informing.

Now, when you say you disconnect that antenna, that means only the two
wires of the dipole and no other connection? If so, replace those two
wires with a dummy load to judge how well the path for transmission
remains (do a SWR test).

Replace the wires of the dipole with a small (18 inch diameter)
recieve loop. How does that perform, noise-wise?

Try using a small portable radio in the vicinity of the elevator shed
and do a noise survey, making a map to see if you can find a hot spot.

Getting inside that room thou or once inside the cabnets might prove
difficult the building considers the new work up there as sacrade
grounds now they didn't even paint the room, and can't figure this
one out, took out the 120v outlet that used to be on the wall for
service not even sure thats legal (code) but certainly inconvient
so what i saw from looking in the window didn't tell me anything about
grounds but an execellent idea i overlooked, i can see their
cabinets are connected via metal conduit so i presume there is some
ground made couldn't tell of the motors the wires are in a conduit
that seems to go tothe motor so i can't see any actual connections

Take a look inside each time you visit. Perhaps in time it will
become more familiar and the solution will leap out at you.

i was always guessing it wasn't the motor since the noise will occur
even if the motor isn't turning however i understand now that it could
be either an antenna or energized during it's still moments

Good observations. Think about this in the context of my suggestion
above about the portable radio.

the motors are closest to my antena and the cabinets are furthest and
at right angles perp however the entire room is only 15x15


i just can't figure why the noise isn't constant thou or exactly
intermittant ie it can be on 3 off 2 on 4 off 7

This may take more time with you on the roof during high traffic
periods. In the shack, you might want to make a detail log of time of
occurence to see if it correlates to some particular activity.
Obviously this implies the typical morning, lunch, and evening traffic
of the building, but analysis might show a constant noise field.

thanks very much Rich!!

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC