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What do you mean "maintaining good contact to it"? The copper tape
adheres well & doesn't move. The foil is secured in place by the
packing tape (it completely covers all of the foil surface and copper
tape connections). The tubes propeller a bit in the wind, but I don't
think that causes any disruptive flexing of the foil; at least not
enough to cause the soldered/taped connection to break/discontinue.

I couldn't xmt on 40M cause of the high SWR, but I could rcv &, except
for the noisy conditions, it sounded fine.

Thanks for your comments.
--
MGFoster:::mgf00 at earthlink decimal-point net
Oakland, CA (USA)
KI6OFN

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Aluminum foil is fine for the purpose, electrically, but I think
you'll
have a dickens of the time maintaining good contact to it. You might
even end up creating a rectifying junction which could generate
harmonics when transmitting and intermod when receiving.



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MGFoster wrote:
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What do you mean "maintaining good contact to it"? The copper tape
adheres well & doesn't move. The foil is secured in place by the
packing tape (it completely covers all of the foil surface and copper
tape connections). The tubes propeller a bit in the wind, but I don't
think that causes any disruptive flexing of the foil; at least not
enough to cause the soldered/taped connection to break/discontinue.

I couldn't xmt on 40M cause of the high SWR, but I could rcv &, except
for the noisy conditions, it sounded fine.

Thanks for your comments.

The instant aluminum comes in contact with air, an oxide layer forms on
it. The oxide layer is a hard, brittle ceramic which is an excellent
insulator. Making electrical contact to aluminum requires breaking
through the oxide to the metal underneath. This causes broken pieces of
the oxide to dig into the aluminum. If pressure is maintained and no air
ever strikes the aluminum again, the contact will remain sound. That is,
in fact, how aluminum house wiring is (properly) handled -- a high
pressure contact, with a generous amount of grease to prevent contact
with air.

If your contact jiggles a bit in the wind or for any other reason, the
physical contact in various places will be broken at times. Each time,
more oxide is formed and, when pressure is reapplied, it breaks and gets
pushed into the aluminum. Eventually, you have a surface that's mostly
shards of oxide and little or no metallic aluminum. (This is also why
tin plated contacts always inevitably fail.)

In addition, copper and aluminum form an electrolytic cell. So if any
moisture is present, corrosion of the joint will occur and contact will
eventually become bad or lost altogether.

That's what I mean by the difficulty of "maintaining good contact". Your
system will work fine. For a while.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:01:38 -0800, Roy Lewallen
wrote:

That is,
in fact, how aluminum house wiring is (properly) handled -- a high
pressure contact, with a generous amount of grease to prevent contact
with air.

Hi Roy,

If I recall history and physics correctly (and simultaneously), house
wiring failed through cold flow, a property of aluminum to relax under
a one-time application of pressure (impulse rather than sustained
pressure) and thus the joint failed. The failure raised resistance,
resistance raised temperature, temperature raised flames.... no more
common use of aluminum in house wiring.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:

Hi Roy,

If I recall history and physics correctly (and simultaneously), house
wiring failed through cold flow, a property of aluminum to relax under
a one-time application of pressure (impulse rather than sustained
pressure) and thus the joint failed. The failure raised resistance,
resistance raised temperature, temperature raised flames.... no more
common use of aluminum in house wiring.

When I put in a new service entrance in 1979, it was after the problems
with ordinary aluminum house wiring were discovered and it was no longer
being used. But the service entrance cable I got was aluminum. The
service box connectors are marked as approved for both aluminum and
copper wiring, and have a compression fitting which doesn't give the
aluminum anywhere to flow. Generous application of NoAlOx or a similar
grease was also required for proper installation, so that's what I did.
It's been completely trouble-free for nearly 30 years now. So it was,
and is, possible to use aluminum wire. But it has to be done correctly,
with due regard to its vagaries.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Richard Clark wrote:

Hi Roy,

If I recall history and physics correctly (and simultaneously), house
wiring failed through cold flow, a property of aluminum to relax under
a one-time application of pressure (impulse rather than sustained
pressure) and thus the joint failed. The failure raised resistance,
resistance raised temperature, temperature raised flames.... no more
common use of aluminum in house wiring.

When I put in a new service entrance in 1979, it was after the problems
with ordinary aluminum house wiring were discovered and it was no longer
being used. But the service entrance cable I got was aluminum. The
service box connectors are marked as approved for both aluminum and
copper wiring, and have a compression fitting which doesn't give the
aluminum anywhere to flow. Generous application of NoAlOx or a similar
grease was also required for proper installation, so that's what I did.
It's been completely trouble-free for nearly 30 years now. So it was,
and is, possible to use aluminum wire. But it has to be done correctly,
with due regard to its vagaries.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Roy;

The problem with AL house wire is that the pure Al that the wire is made
of will flow under pressure. When it was used with Cu wire switches and
outlets the attachment points could not maintain the pressure to insure
adequate contact.
At work one day the personnel department secretary requested one of the
company two way radios for her desk. I installed a Motorola HT220 in a
desk charger and plugged it into the outlet next to her desk. That night
the mobile home trailer that we used for personnel burnt to the ground.
To this day I don't know if there was a connection. ;^)... However, the
radio was a mess. The trailer was manufactured during the copper
shortage that necessitated the use of Al wire.

Dave Nagel WD9BDZ

David G. Nagel wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:


Hi Roy,

If I recall history and physics correctly (and simultaneously), house
wiring failed through cold flow, a property of aluminum to relax under
a one-time application of pressure (impulse rather than sustained
pressure) and thus the joint failed. The failure raised resistance,
resistance raised temperature, temperature raised flames.... no more
common use of aluminum in house wiring.


When I put in a new service entrance in 1979, it was after the
problems with ordinary aluminum house wiring were discovered and it
was no longer being used. But the service entrance cable I got was
aluminum. The service box connectors are marked as approved for both
aluminum and copper wiring, and have a compression fitting which
doesn't give the aluminum anywhere to flow. Generous application of
NoAlOx or a similar grease was also required for proper installation,
so that's what I did. It's been completely trouble-free for nearly 30
years now. So it was, and is, possible to use aluminum wire. But it
has to be done correctly, with due regard to its vagaries.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL



Roy;

The problem with AL house wire is that the pure Al that the wire is made
of will flow under pressure. When it was used with Cu wire switches and
outlets the attachment points could not maintain the pressure to insure
adequate contact.

there's a bit more to it than that.. and, there's a whole industry that
has sprung up to do wiring retrofits, adapters, inspect your house,
etc., as well as to litigate claims of one sort or another. Tough to
find unbiased information on the web.

It has to do with which alloy of aluminum was used, and the casual use
of the wrong alloy with connection methods not suitable for it (i.e.
screw terminals). When the copper prices rose and the economy sank in
the late 60s early 70s, they used the same aluminum wire (EC1350?) as
had been used (successfully) for overhead and underground feeders for
decades. The wire companies will make wire out of any alloy you want,
so folks said, give me that stuff I've been getting in 2/0, except in
AWG14 or AWG12.

Bad choice, as it happens. An alloy that is good for big ol' fat feeders
supporting their own weight on a 100 ft span, especially bare ones,
going into big (aluminum) compression clamps, is probably not a good
choice for electricians working in tight quarters, stripping insulation
with a penknife, and then wrapping it around a screw made of steel
that's installed into a threaded hole made of brass. Even worse, the
quickwiring "push it in the hole" type connectors.

Another problem was the change from brass to steel screws in the
terminations, also as a result of cost. The Coefficient of Thermal
Expansion (CTE) mismatch between brass and aluminum isn't as big as
between steel and aluminum. And, issues with Steel screws staying tight
in brass threads, etc.

I don't know that cold flow is actually an issue. After all, most power
lines and the feeder to your house is done with old style aluminum
wires, into a compression screw termination, and failures are very rare,
even with the connector untouched for 50 years. It's more the gradual
loosening from temperature cycling, which is self aggravating: small gap
opens, contact area reduces, localized heating causes more of a gap, etc.


Modern aluminum wiring uses another alloy (AA-8000 series or ACM), which
has better mechanical properties: it's less brittle, so nicks and tight
turns don't cause problems, it's also mechanically weaker, but that's
not an issue, unlike with overhead power lines, which need to support
their own weight. In addition, the termination device (the screws or
clamps) are specifically designed to work with the aluminum (or copper)
wire. Things like little ridges and grooves in the plate you tighten
down against.

Some interesting photos at:
http://www.qpi-inspect.com/aluminum06-02-04.pdf

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Roy Lewallen wrote:

SNIP

If pressure is maintained and no air ever strikes the aluminum again,
The contact will remain sound.

Wouldn't the complete enclosure of the Al by the packing tape reduce, or
prevent, air contact. I'm not saying I did that good a job of wrapping
the foil, I was just concerned w/ protecting the foil from physical wear
& tear.

SNIP

That's what I mean by the difficulty of "maintaining good contact".
Your
system will work fine. For a while.


I was going to use the antenna just for portable ops, and I was hoping
it would last longer than "a while."

Oh well, back to the ... etc.

Thanks, Roy

73
--
MGFoster:::mgf00 at earthlink decimal-point net
Oakland, CA (USA)
KI6OFN

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MGFoster wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

SNIP

If pressure is maintained and no air ever strikes the aluminum again,
The contact will remain sound.

Wouldn't the complete enclosure of the Al by the packing tape reduce, or
prevent, air contact. I'm not saying I did that good a job of wrapping
the foil, I was just concerned w/ protecting the foil from physical wear
& tear.

It should help, but I honestly can't say how much. The tape should help
keep moisture out, anyway.

SNIP

That's what I mean by the difficulty of "maintaining good contact".
Your
system will work fine. For a while.


I was going to use the antenna just for portable ops, and I was hoping
it would last longer than "a while."

Surely the larger the surface area of the contact, the longer before it
fails to make contact somewhere. There's no reason not to use it, but be
on the lookout for intermod and harmonics or noise in the receiver when
the wind blows and jiggles it, and don't be surprised when it fails.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL