What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

David G. Nagel wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
The point is that if an amp is equipped with foldback,
it probably cannot vaporize a severely mismatched antenna
without the aid of an antenna tuner.

Actually it will most likely vaporize the tuner first...

With #10 wire in the tuner coil and #26 wire in the
hamstick coil?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Lumpy wrote:
You have a tuner that vaporizes hamsticks?

Assume a legal limit amp that folds back when mismatched.
Add a legal limit tuner and indeed you can vaporize
hamsticks.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Cecil,
I think I'll take my tuner and go home. Not saying it wasn't fun,
just other things to do, you know, that four letter word... 'X'ork.
- 'Doc

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Lumpy wrote:
You have a tuner that vaporizes hamsticks?

Assume a legal limit amp that folds back when mismatched.
Add a legal limit tuner and indeed you can vaporize
hamsticks.

Hmmm. Past experience suggests my Russian 5KW amp has no "foldback." I
hesitate to think other experience the same--but, judging from some
signals, it is quite likely!

BUT! Very happy with the SDR!

Regards,
JS

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:33:16 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

A popular myth is developing that the tuner has no effect
at the antenna feedpoint and the only goal is to make the
transmitter "happy". My question is: if we monitored
only the forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner? If the answer
is "yes", the myth is false.

Would it help to attach an antenna analyzer to the back side of a
tuner, tune the antenna and see if it affects the analyzer?
--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Buck wrote:
Would it help to attach an antenna analyzer to the back side of a
tuner, tune the antenna and see if it affects the analyzer?

Certainly it changes the impedance looking into the tuner
input and that has an effect on the entire antenna system.
The forward and reflected voltages, currents, and powers are
at their maximum values when the tuner achieves a Z0-match.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
It's a short drive from there to "the tuner has no effect on the
antenna".

Actually, it went farther than that:

From QRZ.com regarding tuners:

"The tuner has absolutely no effect at the antenna."

From eHam.net regarding tuners:

"Does nothing. The tuner as the other poster said,
just makes your radio happy."

So we have a score or more posts that boil down to "at" or "on", when it
is blatantly obvious what the intent of the statements were.

....good job!

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Jim Higgins wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:33:16 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

A popular myth is developing that the tuner has no effect
at the antenna feedpoint and the only goal is to make the
transmitter "happy". My question is: if we monitored
only the forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner? If the answer
is "yes", the myth is false.


I suspect many hams are confused on this subject and that many more
just express themselves awkwardly.

What's totally beyond my understanding is why so many here repeatedly
waste their time helping you have fun with either category.

Bravo! Endless self-indulgent mental masturbation appears to be the
function of far too many posts over the last several years. This has
virtually ruined what at one time was a fine resource for amateurs
interested in antennas. I used to recommend that people who had
questions about or interest in antennas come to this newsgroup. I
stopped doing it, and now only take a look myself every week or two to
see if anything has changed...it only seems to get worse.

It's a damn shame what a few frequent posters have done to this newsgroup.

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"If we monitored only forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner?"

Yes because a conjugate match delivers all available power (a maximum)
and a conjugate match also exists at every pair of terminals between the
transmitter and the antenna if the tuner and line are essentially
lossless.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Richard Harrison wrote:
Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"If we monitored only forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner?"

Yes because a conjugate match delivers all available power (a maximum)
and a conjugate match also exists at every pair of terminals between the
transmitter and the antenna if the tuner and line are essentially
lossless.

I made an interesting assertion on a related thread over
on QRZ Q&A.

"A CONJUGATE MATCH TO A MISMATCHED LOAD GUARANTEES MAXIMUM
POWER REFLECTED FROM THE LOAD!"

The maximum available power is delivered to a mismatched load
when a conjugate match exists. It follows that is also the
point where the incident power is maximum and the mismatched
load will be reflecting the maximum amount of incident power.

Apparently, one could adjust an antenna tuner for a conjugate
match by monitoring the reflected power at the *output* of the
tuner and adjusting for a maximum. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

On Jun 23, 8:23 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Richard Harrison wrote:
Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"If we monitored only forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner?"

Yes because a conjugate match delivers all available power (a maximum)
and a conjugate match also exists at every pair of terminals between the
transmitter and the antenna if the tuner and line are essentially
lossless.

I made an interesting assertion on a related thread over
on QRZ Q&A.

"A CONJUGATE MATCH TO A MISMATCHED LOAD GUARANTEES MAXIMUM
POWER REFLECTED FROM THE LOAD!"

The maximum available power is delivered to a mismatched load
when a conjugate match exists. It follows that is also the
point where the incident power is maximum and the mismatched
load will be reflecting the maximum amount of incident power.

Apparently, one could adjust an antenna tuner for a conjugate
match by monitoring the reflected power at the *output* of the
tuner and adjusting for a maximum. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Maxwells law states for efficiency the antenna sysystem must be in
equilibrium.
Equilibrium means that the antenna or antenna system must be a
parallel system because it represents
a full wave length.The transmitter adds a parallel circuit to the
system but it does put stress on the output if the antenna is not in
equilibrium.
It is thus better to keep the stresses away from the transmitter and
contain them in a separate tuner where excess power can slosh
backwards and forwards in the tank circuit, this helps to prevent
expence damage to the finals If you want the antenna system to finish
at the antenna feed point area then you place the tuner at that point,
where it is still part of a antenna system because it allows the
antenna only the power it needs for saturation and where the excess is
circulated in the tuner. If you want the antenna to operate without
the tuner then the antenna will resort to a system where with the
inclusion of a ground system and feed system will act as a heat sink
in the absence of equilibrium at the antenna. When you want the
antenna to radiate the energy it is supplied then it must be in
equilibrium where the distributed loads provide a tank circuit for
efficient radiation without saturation overkill. Remember that what
radiats is a full wave length of wire wether it is all on the antenna
or the antenna spreads the excess to the tuner and the feed system.
You cant stop the radiation you just try to ensure the excess doesn't
create damage when it turns into heat

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Art Unwin wrote:

Maxwells law states for efficiency the antenna sysystem must be in
equilibrium.


None of the laws named after Maxwell state any such thing.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

On Jun 23, 6:22 pm, "Tom Donaly" wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
Maxwells law states for efficiency the antenna sysystem must be in
equilibrium.



None of the laws named after Maxwell state any such thing.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Exactly.
But he garnished laws for his use that were all based on equilibrium
as stated by
other masters as the basis of their findings.
I gave one sample of this by mathematics and the use of Gauss's
theorem to show that Maxwell encompassed the effects of equilibrium
without the verbalisation. Another point I would make about
equilibrium that its very existance defines the lack of moving charge
on the innards of a conductor to achieve Newtons law of action and
reaction where skin depth comes into being as part and parcel of that
concept.. Another point where proof comes into place is that the
computer programs show that for maximum polarisation of any kind and
antenne is not verticle or at right angles to the earth because of
vector values that are encompased by equilibrium. So yes, the premise
of equilibrium is firmly planted in Maxwells laws because of its
content in other laws that he mathematically, which was his interest,
manipulated regardess of their origins.
If one used the Gaussian extension that I used in place of Maxwells
laws it can be readily seen that radiation is created by the movement
of particles, evidence that Maxwell could not and did not supply thus
leaving a void for Einstein that forced him away from classical
physics.
So yes, Maxwell made a huge error by not mentioning the requirement of
equilibrium per Newtons laws.

What effect does a tuner have at the antenna?
 

Art Unwin wrote:

Art Unwin wrote:
Maxwells law states for efficiency the antenna sysystem must be in
equilibrium.


So yes, Maxwell made a huge error by not mentioning the requirement of
equilibrium per Newtons laws.


Well, Art is right again. All possibilities covered.



73,
Gene
W4SZ