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Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:28 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote: However, returning to my own recent shipboard experience and antennas there, I will later today post a link to a dozen or so pictures. It will include shots of Guss' Loops. I dare say several of these pictures will provoke much head scratching (but only to those few actually interested in antennas here in this forum). http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/antennas/navy/ 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:28 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: However, returning to my own recent shipboard experience and antennas there, I will later today post a link to a dozen or so pictures. It will include shots of Guss' Loops. I dare say several of these pictures will provoke much head scratching (but only to those few actually interested in antennas here in this forum). http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/antennas/navy/ I used to have the nomenclatures of all those antennas memorized, but, alas, having gotten away from EMI inspections in 2003 and having fully retired last year, all I can call to mind is the AS-2815/SSR-1 (your "Drooped Cross Horizontal") You zeroed in on some cryppie antennas. I rocognize the biconical dipole, an HFDF antenna and a Rubicon antenna. They're often found together on an Aegis cruiser. (Makes me want to put on my coveralls and get back out there -- or maybe not.) |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Sal M. Onella" wrote in message ... "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:28 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: However, returning to my own recent shipboard experience and antennas there, I will later today post a link to a dozen or so pictures. It will include shots of Guss' Loops. I dare say several of these pictures will provoke much head scratching (but only to those few actually interested in antennas here in this forum). http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/antennas/navy/ I used to have the nomenclatures of all those antennas memorized, but, alas, having gotten away from EMI inspections in 2003 and having fully retired last year, all I can call to mind is the AS-2815/SSR-1 (your "Drooped Cross Horizontal") You zeroed in on some cryppie antennas. I rocognize the biconical dipole, an HFDF antenna and a Rubicon antenna. They're often found together on an Aegis cruiser. (Makes me want to put on my coveralls and get back out there -- or maybe not.) Hi "Sal" I'd like to know more about the Drooped Cross Horizontal"). Do you know the frequency it is designed for? Jerry KD6JDJ |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:01:10 GMT, "Jerry"
wrote: "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message ... "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:28 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: However, returning to my own recent shipboard experience and antennas there, I will later today post a link to a dozen or so pictures. It will include shots of Guss' Loops. I dare say several of these pictures will provoke much head scratching (but only to those few actually interested in antennas here in this forum). http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/antennas/navy/ I used to have the nomenclatures of all those antennas memorized, but, alas, having gotten away from EMI inspections in 2003 and having fully retired last year, all I can call to mind is the AS-2815/SSR-1 (your "Drooped Cross Horizontal") You zeroed in on some cryppie antennas. I rocognize the biconical dipole, an HFDF antenna and a Rubicon antenna. They're often found together on an Aegis cruiser. (Makes me want to put on my coveralls and get back out there -- or maybe not.) Hi "Sal" I'd like to know more about the Drooped Cross Horizontal"). Do you know the frequency it is designed for? Jerry KD6JDJ Hi Jerry, I built a model of it, and from by guess and by golly, I presumed it would be somewhere in the middle of the VHF/UHF Shipboard Band (225-400 MHz) and made it resonant at 300 MHz (arbitrary selection, mind you). Let me know if you want a copy of that file. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:35:02 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote: You zeroed in on some cryppie antennas. I rocognize the biconical dipole, an HFDF antenna and a Rubicon antenna. They're often found together on an Aegis cruiser. (Makes me want to put on my coveralls and get back out there -- or maybe not.) There were more antennas to select from for posting, but they inhabited higher frequencies and had less obvious structural elements - like one I stood next to while the crew manned the rails. Not crypto, per sé, but one of those spook traffic sniffers that was the size of an industrial washing machine, sitting on the weather deck of the forward superstructure. The CT Chief standing next to me pointed it out. The shipboard shots were either the USS Bunker Hill, or the USS Princeton, AEGIS cruisers as you have already said. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:35:02 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote: all I can call to mind is the AS-2815/SSR-1 (your "Drooped Cross Horizontal") For those who want to see the specifics, use the nomenclature offered and select at page: http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...nsor_main.html 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:01:10 GMT, "Jerry" wrote: "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message ... "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:28 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: However, returning to my own recent shipboard experience and antennas there, I will later today post a link to a dozen or so pictures. It will include shots of Guss' Loops. I dare say several of these pictures will provoke much head scratching (but only to those few actually interested in antennas here in this forum). http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/antennas/navy/ I used to have the nomenclatures of all those antennas memorized, but, alas, having gotten away from EMI inspections in 2003 and having fully retired last year, all I can call to mind is the AS-2815/SSR-1 (your "Drooped Cross Horizontal") You zeroed in on some cryppie antennas. I rocognize the biconical dipole, an HFDF antenna and a Rubicon antenna. They're often found together on an Aegis cruiser. (Makes me want to put on my coveralls and get back out there -- or maybe not.) Hi "Sal" I'd like to know more about the Drooped Cross Horizontal"). Do you know the frequency it is designed for? Jerry KD6JDJ Hi Jerry, I built a model of it, and from by guess and by golly, I presumed it would be somewhere in the middle of the VHF/UHF Shipboard Band (225-400 MHz) and made it resonant at 300 MHz (arbitrary selection, mind you). Let me know if you want a copy of that file. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard Yes, I sure would like to see your EZNEC file. I'd benefit from seeing how you modeled it too. The antenna looks like it iis designed for satellite reception. It interests me to consider that the "DCA" that I developed would (perhaps) be a design concept applicable to this operational requirement. Jerry KD6JDJ |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
Jerry wrote:
... Hi Richard Yes, I sure would like to see your EZNEC file. I'd benefit from seeing how you modeled it too. The antenna looks like it iis designed for satellite reception. It interests me to consider that the "DCA" that I developed would (perhaps) be a design concept applicable to this operational requirement. Jerry KD6JDJ Uhh, those eznec files, they are kinda like a high-school\college friend recently explained to me in financial terms: "If you have a sheet of paper claiming a "controlling interest in gold", all you REALLY have is a sheet of paper! If you are looking at the gold you are "invested" in, you REALLY HAVE the gold!" wink But then, it is only when you realize there have been more "certificates in 'controlling' interests in gold" issued than the amount of gold which exists in the world, that, you suddenly awaken to a HARSH reality! (like some have "been had!") Read about "The Great Depression", I tell 'ya, there are clues to be had there! I mean, really, it is the same old game, just new "marks!" chuckle Regards, JS |
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On Sep 15, 5:46*pm, John Smith wrote:
Jerry wrote: ... * Hi Richard * Yes, I sure would like to see your EZNEC file. * I'd benefit from seeing how you modeled it too. * The antenna looks like it iis designed for satellite reception. * It interests me to consider that the "DCA" that I developed would (perhaps) be a design concept applicable to this operational requirement. |
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"John Smith" wrote in message ... On Sep 15, 5:46 pm, John Smith wrote: Jerry wrote: ... Hi Richard Yes, I sure would like to see your EZNEC file. I'd benefit from seeing how you modeled it too. The antenna looks like it iis designed for satellite reception. It interests me to consider that the "DCA" that I developed would (perhaps) be a design concept applicable to this operational requirement. Jerry KD6JDJ Uhh, those eznec files, they are kinda like a high-school\college friend recently explained to me in financial terms: "If you have a sheet of paper claiming a "controlling interest in gold", all you REALLY have is a sheet of paper! If you are looking at the gold you are "invested" in, you REALLY HAVE the gold!" wink But then, it is only when you realize there have been more "certificates in 'controlling' interests in gold" issued than the amount of gold which exists in the world, that, you suddenly awaken to a HARSH reality! (like some have "been had!") Read about "The Great Depression", I tell 'ya, there are clues to be had there! I mean, really, it is the same old game, just new "marks!" chuckle Regards, JS Hi John You are right, this EZNEC antenna modeling program is like gold to anyone interested in learning about antennas. You are additionally right about the fact that all you need is a piece of paper (or monitor) to display aspects of an antenna that would otherwise require thousands of dollars to duplicate. Jerry KD6JDJ |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:01:10 GMT, "Jerry" wrote: "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message ... "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:28 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: However, returning to my own recent shipboard experience and antennas there, I will later today post a link to a dozen or so pictures. It will include shots of Guss' Loops. I dare say several of these pictures will provoke much head scratching (but only to those few actually interested in antennas here in this forum). http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/antennas/navy/ I used to have the nomenclatures of all those antennas memorized, but, alas, having gotten away from EMI inspections in 2003 and having fully retired last year, all I can call to mind is the AS-2815/SSR-1 (your "Drooped Cross Horizontal") You zeroed in on some cryppie antennas. I rocognize the biconical dipole, an HFDF antenna and a Rubicon antenna. They're often found together on an Aegis cruiser. (Makes me want to put on my coveralls and get back out there -- or maybe not.) Hi "Sal" I'd like to know more about the Drooped Cross Horizontal"). Do you know the frequency it is designed for? Jerry KD6JDJ Hi Jerry, I built a model of it, and from by guess and by golly, I presumed it would be somewhere in the middle of the VHF/UHF Shipboard Band (225-400 MHz) and made it resonant at 300 MHz (arbitrary selection, mind you). Let me know if you want a copy of that file. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard That is an interesting antenna (AS-2815/SSR-1). I didnt know how to feed it, but I see how you did it. If that *is* used to communicate with polar orbiting satellites, I'd expect the DCA to outperform it. I have demonstrated fairly well that the DCA outperforms the Quad Helix for reception from NOAA polar orbiting satellites. I'd be curious to know what the Navy would think of the DCA for a replacement of that AS-2815/SSR-1. Jerry KD6JDJ |
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Jerry wrote:
... Hi John You are right, this EZNEC antenna modeling program is like gold to anyone interested in learning about antennas. You are additionally right about the fact that all you need is a piece of paper (or monitor) to display aspects of an antenna that would otherwise require thousands of dollars to duplicate. Jerry KD6JDJ Jerry: I certainly don't wish to invoke your anger by pointing out your ignorance, but guy, eznec is only a front-end to eznec ... mmana-gal does exactly the same thing, has no limitations and is free ... Eznec does nothing but create an ascii text file and feed it to the nec engine, and displays the results ... Sorry guy, it just looks complicated to you ... And, of course, no disrespect meant to Roy ... he did a nice job on the front-end ... Regards, JS |
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John Smith wrote:
... Jerry: I certainly don't wish to invoke your anger by pointing out your ignorance, but guy, eznec is only a front-end to eznec ... mmana-gal does exactly the same thing, has no limitations and is free ... Eznec does nothing but create an ascii text file and feed it to the nec engine, and displays the results ... Sorry guy, it just looks complicated to you ... And, of course, no disrespect meant to Roy ... he did a nice job on the front-end ... Regards, JS Just caught the error when I hit send: Change "... eznec is only a front-end to eznec ..." TO "eznec is only a front-end to the nec engine ..." Regards, JS |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:31:31 GMT, "Jerry"
wrote: Hi Richard That is an interesting antenna (AS-2815/SSR-1). I didnt know how to feed it, but I see how you did it. If that *is* used to communicate with polar orbiting satellites, I'd expect the DCA to outperform it. I have demonstrated fairly well that the DCA outperforms the Quad Helix for reception from NOAA polar orbiting satellites. I'd be curious to know what the Navy would think of the DCA for a replacement of that AS-2815/SSR-1. Jerry KD6JDJ Hi Jerry, Well, I got most of the structural details down OK. However, the feed is by guess and by golly. In the pictures you can catch a hint of it (especially when you compare to my file), but this does not say if there is a phasing harness hidden inside the stanchion tube. As for the Navy being interested in your DCA, I've been on the vendor list for years, and worked with their RFPs the same time. It is not for someone who isn't ready to seriously commit a lot of time to paperwork. As for the others following this about crossed antennas, helical antennas, there is one model the Navy uses that has interesting design (Art will probably claim it proves what ever flavor theory he is selling today) the AS-2227/SRN-9: http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...v/as-2227.html http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...as-2227_01.jpg 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:31:31 GMT, "Jerry" wrote: Hi Richard That is an interesting antenna (AS-2815/SSR-1). I didnt know how to feed it, but I see how you did it. If that *is* used to communicate with polar orbiting satellites, I'd expect the DCA to outperform it. I have demonstrated fairly well that the DCA outperforms the Quad Helix for reception from NOAA polar orbiting satellites. I'd be curious to know what the Navy would think of the DCA for a replacement of that AS-2815/SSR-1. Jerry KD6JDJ Hi Jerry, Well, I got most of the structural details down OK. However, the feed is by guess and by golly. In the pictures you can catch a hint of it (especially when you compare to my file), but this does not say if there is a phasing harness hidden inside the stanchion tube. As for the Navy being interested in your DCA, I've been on the vendor list for years, and worked with their RFPs the same time. It is not for someone who isn't ready to seriously commit a lot of time to paperwork. As for the others following this about crossed antennas, helical antennas, there is one model the Navy uses that has interesting design (Art will probably claim it proves what ever flavor theory he is selling today) the AS-2227/SRN-9: http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...v/as-2227.html http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...as-2227_01.jpg 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard You got good results from your "guess" at how to feed that Droop Cross Navy antenna. I'm impressed. The fact is - I wouldnt advise the Navy to change that antenna if it is functioning properly. It is simple and it is rugged looking. As you know, I am not on the selling end of anything, including antennas. I do like to state that the DCA antenna design concept performs better for horizon to horizon coverage of polar orbiting satellites than any other omni azimuth antenna. Jerry KD6JDJ |
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On Sep 15, 7:50*pm, John Smith wrote:
John Smith wrote: * ... Jerry: I certainly don't wish to invoke your anger by pointing out your ignorance, but guy, eznec is only a front-end to eznec ... mmana-gal does exactly the same thing, has no limitations and is free ... Eznec does nothing but create an ascii text file and feed it to the nec engine, and displays the results ... Sorry guy, it just looks complicated to you ... And, of course, no disrespect meant to Roy ... he did a nice job on the front-end ... Regards, JS Just caught the error when I hit send: Change "... eznec is only a front-end to eznec ..." *TO "eznec is only a front-end to the nec engine ..." Regards, JS- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Glad to see you are coping, Mr. Anonymous "John". Good save chuckle |
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Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Jerry" wrote in message ... .. Hi "Sal" I'd like to know more about the Drooped Cross Horizontal"). Do you know the frequency it is designed for? Jerry KD6JDJ Yes. Its nomenclature is AS-2815/SSR-1A. It was designed for the UHF satellite "Fleet Broadcast," 240 - 315 MHz, but I have seen it used only in a narrower range, more like 248 - 262 MHz. The pattern is semi-omni, essentially taking in a view of the entire sky. The system is receive-only and has been a mainstay of fleet comms for decades. The version I grew up with had a 1200 bps digital mux of fifteen 74 baud TTY signals (100 WPM). It may have advanced since then; I don't know the capabilities of the -A version. (I hope they made it more idiot-proof.) Ships are usually fitted with three or four antennas, strategically placed so that at least one of them is clear of blockage. The system uses what is called "pre-detection integration," whereby the strongest signal is demodulated, on the presumption that it's the best quality. It's a form of diversity reception. The original AN/SSR-1 system downconverted the received signal to a 19.95 MHz first-IF out on deck, a few feet from the antenna. I believe the AN/SSR-1A amplifies the received signal and it goes all the way to the radio room at the d/l frequency. Maybe somebody will know for sure whether that's right, but I think so. "Sal" (KD6VKW) |
Navy Antennas (was Tilted Pinball Antenna Theory)
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... snip As for the others following this about crossed antennas, helical antennas, there is one model the Navy uses that has interesting design (Art will probably claim it proves what ever flavor theory he is selling today) the AS-2227/SRN-9: http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...v/as-2227.html http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...as-2227_01.jpg Woo-hoo! I remember that beast! I had an interference study to do on it. The SRN-9 and WRN-5 were used with the old Transit satnav system, a precursor to GPS. It worked OK (usually) but the satellites were sub-synchronous and you could only compute a fix during a pass, which happened only a few times each day. Even then, you needed to get it during rising Doppler, which really meant half a pass. |
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