On Oct 6, 7:19*pm, wrote:
On Oct 4, 2:12*pm, John Smith wrote:

NM5K wrote:

Yes. But they deal with the real world, not a bunch of conjered up
voodoo science.

Funny you should mention that. *As, when you peek closely under the hood
of the NEC engine (at least the one I use and have the source code to),
it does have a bit of what you call "voodoo science", IMHO ...

Can you believe that? This guy is claiming that the method of moments
is voodoo science! I wonder what is peek under the hood was. What
books did he read? Can he still read books? It's twight time...



Only people with limited room are likely to be interesting
in accepting a decrease in performance, vs using full size
antennas. The only place you see me using small antennas on HF

Don't forget us guys who are over 50 and getting tired of maintaining
large hunks of metal in the sky and fighting the force of gravity Gods
to do so (in more ways than one! *

Not to mention those fierce ether winds.

And, not to mention neighbors, rules,
regulations, etc.) *With the price of real estate being manipulated near
"Hong Kong Prices" (what is that, about a million dollars a sq. ft.?),

I guess "John" has not heard about the real estate crash.

reduced size antennas will only increase in uses and demand ...

That is true because the microwave portions of the spectrum is
becoming so pervasive. But not HF.



Regards,
JS

Sigh....another senility eruption takes its course.

John could well be correct as certain assumed conditions(assumptions)
were set over and above Maxwell's laws
prior to the program being computed !
These programs are generally used to determine the functions of planar
antennas and the like that do NOT meet
the conditions implied in Maxwell's laws. One condition implicite in
all the laws of the masters is that
Newtons laws with respect to equilibrium must be observed, which rules
out such arrangements as the Yagi.
This is not to say that Maxwell's laws are used incorrectly in antenna
programs,only that it is usually used outside
its intended usage where acountability of all vectors are not
accounted for, which thus provides aproximations
Close enough for horse shoes and lemmings but not for the pursuit of
science along the lines intended by Newton and others.
Best regards
Art Unwin KB9MZ

Art Unwin wrote:

...
John could well be correct as certain assumed conditions(assumptions)
were set over and above Maxwell's laws
prior to the program being computed !
These programs are generally used to determine the functions of planar
antennas and the like that do NOT meet
the conditions implied in Maxwell's laws. One condition implicite in
all the laws of the masters is that
Newtons laws with respect to equilibrium must be observed, which rules
out such arrangements as the Yagi.
This is not to say that Maxwell's laws are used incorrectly in antenna
programs,only that it is usually used outside
its intended usage where acountability of all vectors are not
accounted for, which thus provides aproximations
Close enough for horse shoes and lemmings but not for the pursuit of
science along the lines intended by Newton and others.
Best regards
Art Unwin KB9MZ

Art:

With so many fools (indians?) after my scalp, I am lucky to remain on
the square I occupy ... these fools attempt to drag us back to dark ages ...

Regards,
JS

wrote:

...
Can you believe that? This guy is claiming that the method of moments
is voodoo science! I wonder what is peek under the hood was. What
books did he read? Can he still read books? It's twight time...
...

Dummy:

Not only can they believe it, those worth listening to have seen it.
Open a book up and get with 'em! (Or, be enlightened, open a few books!
And, make sure among those books are a few of recent authorship!)

Now, stand at ease -- for the present ... wink

Regards,
JS

"NM5K" wrote in message ...
Art Unwin wrote:

if it was possible they would
already have done it.

And he is right. They have only had about 100 years to work
on it.

Yes. In the 1950's the USAF studied small antennas for the "new" Boeing
707's that they were buying as C-135/KC-135. I remember reading about it in
one of the magazines of the time. They apparently were not entirely happy
with the antenna that projected forward from the top of the stabilizer.
They continued to employ a belly-mount trailing wire on some aircraft at
least into the 1980's. (Good info hard to find.)

If all the money the Air Force could throw at a problem didn't come up with
some magic, do we have a lot of hope???

Sal M. Onella wrote:
"NM5K" wrote in message ...
Art Unwin wrote:

if it was possible they would
already have done it.
And he is right. They have only had about 100 years to work
on it.

Yes. In the 1950's the USAF studied small antennas for the "new" Boeing
707's that they were buying as C-135/KC-135. I remember reading about it in
one of the magazines of the time. They apparently were not entirely happy
with the antenna that projected forward from the top of the stabilizer.
They continued to employ a belly-mount trailing wire on some aircraft at
least into the 1980's. (Good info hard to find.)

If all the money the Air Force could throw at a problem didn't come up with
some magic, do we have a lot of hope???

Hope for what? Magic? The tradeoffs inherent in electrically small
antennas are well known, and each design requires intelligent
application of that knowledge to come up with an antenna that's
acceptable in size, form factor, and performance for that particular
use. Many, many antennas now being designed and ones in common use are
electrically small -- the ones in your car's remote control key fob,
your Bluetooth USB dongle or cell phone earpiece, and embedded in RFID
tags are just a very few examples. With the increasing use of wireless
devices, the need for electrically small antennas has grown rapidly, and
there are a number of good texts devoted to that specific topic. These
texts contain a good treatment of the tradeoffs involved and useful
ideas for designs using currently available technology and materials,
but no new fundamental theory.

Advancements in the art will continue to come with intelligent and
clever application of established theory by people who understand the
theory and how to apply it, not from tinkerers who lack this knowledge
and conjure their miracles by vague hand-waving and bad measurement.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy Lewallen wrote:

...
Hope for what? Magic? The tradeoffs inherent in electrically small
antennas are well known, and each design requires intelligent
application of that knowledge to come up with an antenna that's
acceptable in size, form factor, and performance for that particular
use. Many, many antennas now being designed and ones in common use are
electrically small -- the ones in your car's remote control key fob,
your Bluetooth USB dongle or cell phone earpiece, and embedded in RFID
tags are just a very few examples. With the increasing use of wireless
devices, the need for electrically small antennas has grown rapidly, and
there are a number of good texts devoted to that specific topic. These
texts contain a good treatment of the tradeoffs involved and useful
ideas for designs using currently available technology and materials,
but no new fundamental theory.

Advancements in the art will continue to come with intelligent and
clever application of established theory by people who understand the
theory and how to apply it, not from tinkerers who lack this knowledge
and conjure their miracles by vague hand-waving and bad measurement.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Ahh, the "magic man" himself is here ... the guy who write a simplistic
interface to feed a text file to the real NEC engine ...

My gawd man, carry on, we await you wisdom ...
smiling-out-the-one-side-of-ones'-face

With all DUE respect,
JS

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
treetonline...
Sal M. Onella wrote:.


snip

If all the money the Air Force could throw at a problem didn't come up
with
some magic, do we have a lot of hope???

Hope for what? Magic?

snip

By "magic" I meant the development of technology that was heretofore
unidentified, not some false illusion by a conjurer. I agree with the
essential need for "clever application of established theory ... [etc]" as
you so eloquently stated.

In that sense, the IC was magic. (Sorry if I seem to liken technology too
much to magic.)

On Oct 5, 10:28*pm, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote:
"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message

treetonline...

Sal M. Onella wrote:.

snip



If all the money the Air Force could throw at a problem didn't come up
with
some magic, do we have a lot of hope???

Hope for what? Magic?

snip

By "magic" I meant the development of technology that was heretofore
unidentified, not some false illusion by a conjurer. * *I agree with the
essential need for "clever application of established theory ... [etc]" * as
you so eloquently stated.

In that sense, the IC was magic. *(Sorry if I seem to liken technology too
much to magic.)

If the USAF crew all read the same books before their journey then
they all had the same experience many times over.
What it takes is imagination and the will to deviate from the well
trodden paths where different experiences and views
empower men to challenge the old based on experiences that others have
not travelled. It then takes a generation
for those that failed and snarled at the new to leave the scene so
that later research turns up the more recent past
and thus reinvents the wheel. Einstien left classical physics because
he could not find the key for the Universal laws
and probed into the science of relativity purely to gain a different
perspective or view of the former problem which required
a move away from the well trodden path to get the answer.
Unfortunately he died before finding the answer but was on the right
track
in not assuming that all was known because of the high number of
failures before him who all trod the same path and arrived at the same
destination.

Sal M. Onella wrote:

...
If all the money the Air Force could throw at a problem didn't come up with
some magic, do we have a lot of hope???



Kinda like, "Look at those pyramids, if we can't build 'em let wrap it
up and go home?"

Good argument, you go, I'll stay ...

Regards,
JS