On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !

Mabye. Most recently, the term comes from cold war era references to
the GUM (great unwashed masses). This was a derrogatory term for the
average intelligence of the general public. The origin of the term
dates back to merry olde England, where it was used to refer to the
lower classes:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=29346
This may be appropriate for ham radio if you have an elitist view of
the Extra-Class license, accompanied by the usual snobbery. As your
FCC ULS page shows you have an Advanced class license:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=410939
this is entirely possible, but improbable. To avoid confusion, I
suggest you upgrade to Extra-Class so that your self image improves,
and so that you not consider yourself being viewd as a lower class
"unwashed" ham.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Nov 1, 12:33*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin

wrote:
I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !

Mabye. *Most recently, the term comes from cold war era references to
the GUM (great unwashed masses). *This was a derrogatory term for the
average intelligence of the general public. *The origin of the term
dates back to merry olde England, where it was used to refer to the
lower classes:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=29346
This may be appropriate for ham radio if you have an elitist view of
the Extra-Class license, accompanied by the usual snobbery. *As your
FCC ULS page shows you have an Advanced class license:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=410939
this is entirely possible, but improbable. *To avoid confusion, I
suggest you upgrade to Extra-Class so that your self image improves,
and so that you not consider yourself being viewd as a lower class
"unwashed" ham.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *
150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558

I don't think Owen determined "unwashed: by the number of FCC
examinations passed.
I suspect he was refering to those who do not have a leaning towards
the science and physics of ham radio
but just want a license to be a talking head. How this type of person
views another is of no consequence
unless all reverts back to the middle ages where death can be a
consquence of any challenge to the status quo.
Art

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On Nov 1, 8:26 am, "Dave" wrote:
David, my explanation is based on the world of physics as I know it.

the world according to art... I love it!

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:01:43 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

On Nov 1, 12:33*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin

wrote:
I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !

Mabye. *Most recently, the term comes from cold war era references to
the GUM (great unwashed masses). *This was a derrogatory term for the
average intelligence of the general public. *The origin of the term
dates back to merry olde England, where it was used to refer to the
lower classes:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=29346
This may be appropriate for ham radio if you have an elitist view of
the Extra-Class license, accompanied by the usual snobbery. *As your
FCC ULS page shows you have an Advanced class license:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=410939
this is entirely possible, but improbable. *To avoid confusion, I
suggest you upgrade to Extra-Class so that your self image improves,
and so that you not consider yourself being viewd as a lower class
"unwashed" ham.

I don't think Owen determined "unwashed: by the number of FCC
examinations passed.

Who be this Owen?

I suspect he was refering to those who do not have a leaning towards
the science and physics of ham radio
but just want a license to be a talking head. How this type of person
views another is of no consequence

We have a substantial number of hams locally that are only interested
in emergency services and have no interest in the technical aspects of
ham radio beyond operating their radios. I'm sure they will be
thrilled to know that their views are of no consequence.

unless all reverts back to the middle ages where death can be a
consquence of any challenge to the status quo.
Art

Yea verily. Methinks trial by combat be the manner in which all
arguments should be settled. It worked well in the middle ages where
all the combative types conveniently exterminated each other, leaving
only the peaceful and tolerant, thus laying the path for the
Renaissance. Perhaps it be a worthy enterprise to return to trial by
combat in ham radio. That should clear out the endless political
debates, reduce pileups, and promote harmony on various bands.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Art, once upon a time, a long time ago, I first heard the word, or concept,
called "skin effect". It seems that somehow, current at RF tends to stay near
the surface of the conductor, going less deep into the conductor as frequency
rises. In fact, at frequencies we 'unwashed' hams use routinely, the current
hardly penetrates the conductor at all. Consequently, if the conductor is the
radiating element of an antenna, and it is a solid, there is no way the current
can enter the center of the conductor and travel through the mass of the
conductor.

I also heard a long time ago the word "reflection." Seems that many savants
discovered that when the current reaches the end of the radiator (conductor) it
sees an open circuit, which the savants say causes the current to reverse its
direction and flow back along the "surface" of the conductor. I also seem to
recall some of those savants say that the combination of the forward current and
the reflected current esstablishes what they call a 'standing wave.' Art, are
you at all familiar with what I'm saying here? These savants have been able to
prove that a standing wave exists on the radiator by moving a fluorescent bulb
along the radiator for all to see.

So what I'm asking you to explain, Art, is how could this proven standing wave
exist on the radiator if the current reaching end of the radiator now goes into
the center of the radiator to propagate only through the mass of the conductor,
and seeing only the resistance of the conductor?

You've told us this happens, Art, but you haven't explained why. Now Art, please
explain this concept to all of us unwashed hams.

Walt, W2DU

On Nov 1, 3:51*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:01:43 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin



wrote:
On Nov 1, 12:33*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin

wrote:
I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !

Mabye. *Most recently, the term comes from cold war era references to
the GUM (great unwashed masses). *This was a derrogatory term for the
average intelligence of the general public. *The origin of the term
dates back to merry olde England, where it was used to refer to the
lower classes:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=29346
This may be appropriate for ham radio if you have an elitist view of
the Extra-Class license, accompanied by the usual snobbery. *As your
FCC ULS page shows you have an Advanced class license:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=410939
this is entirely possible, but improbable. *To avoid confusion, I
suggest you upgrade to Extra-Class so that your self image improves,
and so that you not consider yourself being viewd as a lower class
"unwashed" ham.
I don't think Owen determined "unwashed: by the number of FCC
examinations passed.

Who be this Owen? *

I suspect he was refering to those who do not have a leaning towards
the science and physics of ham radio
but just want a license to be a talking head. How this type of person
views another is of no consequence

We have a substantial number of hams locally that are only interested
in emergency services and have no interest in the technical aspects of
ham radio beyond operating their radios. *I'm sure they will be
thrilled to know that their views are of no consequence.

unless all reverts back to the middle ages where death can be a
consquence of any challenge to the status quo.
Art

Yea verily. *Methinks trial by combat be the manner in which all
arguments should be settled. *It worked well in the middle ages where
all the combative types conveniently exterminated each other, leaving
only the peaceful and tolerant, thus laying the path for the
Renaissance. * Perhaps it be a worthy enterprise to return to trial by
combat in ham radio. *That should clear out the endless political
debates, reduce pileups, and promote harmony on various bands.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *
150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558

No, I don't go along with those who choose ethnic cleansing
nor by those who accumulate the most wealth or those who determine
that God is on their side or the strong that are determined to
dominate
the weak. All nations that have followed this path in history lose out
in numbers
until their ways change, never to rise again as the future holds for
them " kill and be killed" by the many they have harmed.
I suspect that the next change in size of nations
will be the Middle East as all sides have moved towards permanent sin
that will never be forgiven and where some are willing to give
themselves
while taking all, leaving nothing but a desert while the tolerant have
presettled
else where they remove themselves from pre ethnic pasts.
Could we now possibly go back to radio and antennas which is what the
newsgroup
is set up for?
Art

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

"Unwashed" hams
"washed" hams
ethnic cleansing
accumulate the most wealth
God is on their side
the strong dominate the weak.
history
" kill and be killed"
size of nations
the Middle East
permanent sin
a desert
pre ethnic pasts.

Could we now possibly go back to radio and antennas which is what the
newsgroup is set up for?

Among the 13 topics you chose to write about, you don't seem to be
interested, so why ask?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message
...

You've told us this happens, Art, but you haven't explained why. Now Art,
please
explain this concept to all of us unwashed hams.

hey, i just took a shower, speak for yourself!

On Nov 1, 4:28*pm, "Walter Maxwell" wrote:
Art, once upon a time, a long time ago, I first heard the word, or concept,
called "skin effect".
I don't think you are alo0ne there.


It seems that somehow, current at RF tends to stay near
the surface of the conductor, going less deep into the conductor as frequency
rises.
I don't know why you say somehow. Only the surface of a radiator
radiates and the opposing force to the time varying current
known as eddy current changes its depth of penetration with frequency


In fact, at frequencies we 'unwashed' hams use routinely, the current
hardly penetrates the conductor at all.
Again quit true



Consequently, if the conductor is the
radiating element of an antenna, and it is a solid, there is no way the current
can enter the center of the conductor and travel through the mass of the
conductor.

The only thing stopping the fliow of current is the eddy current. The
eddy current
is not present when current flows thru the center of a conductor, nor
is there
radiation from the center of the conductor and the copper resistance
of the center
is certainly less than the provided current and skin resistance that
would occur
if the currfent behaved like salmon and fought it's way back
upstream.




I also heard a long time ago the word "reflection." Seems that many savants
discovered that when the current reaches the end of the radiator (conductor) it
sees an open circuit,
You are moving away from the subject at hand by not declaring what the
radiator is !
For instance there is no evidence that the provided current reverses
itself on a full
wave quad preferring instead to close the current circuit by returning
to the sourcewhich is what standard
physics teaches. There are two radiation circuits, a series and a
parallel circuit
both of which are continuous and closed circuits.


which the savants say causes the current to reverse its
direction and flow back along the "surface" of the conductor.
Ther may well be current disturbance on the outside of a radiator but
the
main current path is always the one of least resistance to complete a
closed circuit.

I also seem to
recall some of those savants say that the combination of the forward current and
the reflected current esstablishes what they call a 'standing wave.'
Well I recognise that there can be disturbances but none that are
powerfull enough to overpower the
main current applied to the radiator.

Art, are
you at all familiar with what I'm saying here?
Yes. You are trying to apply a foundation for a book


These savants have been able to
prove that a standing wave exists on the radiator by moving a fluorescent bulb
along the radiator for all to see.
I have never stated that a standing wave does not exist


So what I'm asking you to explain, Art, is how could this proven standing wave
exist on the radiator if the current reaching end of the radiator now goes into
the center of the radiator to propagate only through the mass of the conductor,
and seeing only the resistance of the conductor?

First of all the standing wave is a disturbance along the path of
current flow
but not so strong as it can overpower it's provider., physics would
never support such a notion.
I previously stated that radiation can only occur from the surface of
the radiator
since it is the eddy or Foucault current that can provide levitation
to resting particles. When current flows thru
a material center it only encounters copper losses as there is no eddy
current generated.


You've told us this happens, Art, but you haven't explained why. Now Art, please
explain this concept to all of us unwashed hams.

I have stated many times what is happening. I reject all notions that
the applied time varying current can be overcome
from its pursuit of returning to its source as it will always follow
the path of least resistance and wil, never generate
a negative force that destroys equilibrium or suggests that energy can
be create.

Frankly, your concentration on reflections with respect to radiation
is just a way to promote a book while at the same time
ignoring what provides communication which is the main issue with
respect to antennas. When you get down to the real
issue of what creats radiation you will find it much easier to
explain reflections instead of just trying to substantiate
possible answers to the frequent abnormalities of your position. I
challenge you to show that when the arbritary field enclosing a static
field
accompanied by the addition of a time varying field applied to said
enclosed field in equilibrium does not equal Maxwells laws.
If it does then the action of particles is a given with respect to
radiation and thus destroys your notions with respect to reflection.
Provide a service to ham radio, Show that the said addition to
gaussian law does NOT equate to Maxwells findings and thus the
present teachings are correct and my theorem is not.



Walt, W2DU
Best regards
Art Unwin

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

I don't think Owen determined "unwashed: by the number of FCC
examinations passed.

Who be this Owen? *

Who is Owen? Is he a radio god?

No, I don't go along with those who choose ethnic cleansing
nor by those who accumulate the most wealth or those who determine
that God is on their side or the strong that are determined to
dominate the weak.

Well, those are usually the winners. If you don't "go along" with
them, it's highly likely that you will be among the losers. That's an
acceptable proposition in a country that protects, supports, and
sometimes even subsidizes the losers (i.e. government bailout). You
might find it more comfortable to be among the winners.

All nations that have followed this path in history lose out
in numbers
until their ways change, never to rise again as the future holds for
them " kill and be killed" by the many they have harmed.

All nations? Well, Jews have maintained their cultural and
nationalistic integrity probably the longest. We also do quite well
in collecting wealth. We're not into ethnic cleansing, although there
are factions that wouldn't mind doing that to the neighboring Arab
states. Lots of other examples (Persia, China, American Indian
nations, Egypt, India) that have been around for a long time. They
all have their ups and downs, but all seem to survive.

I suspect that the next change in size of nations
will be the Middle East as all sides have moved towards permanent sin
that will never be forgiven and where some are willing to give
themselves
while taking all, leaving nothing but a desert while the tolerant have
presettled
else where they remove themselves from pre ethnic pasts.

For a nominal charge, I'll supply the needed forgiveness. As for
leaving the middle east a deserts, it has always been a desert. Not
much changes above ground level.

Could we now possibly go back to radio and antennas which is what the
newsgroup
is set up for?

Possibly yes. However, ending a sentence in a preposition is a
violation of proper grammar, up with which I will not put.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558