rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,alt.internet.wireless added back to the
distribution line.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:03:32 -0800, John Smith
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
If stealing internet service from the neighbors is your intended
purpose, you selected the wrong type of antenna. ...

I'd say stealing is bit strong, I run an open wireless access point
here, its' SSID is "WelcomeAboard!"

My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

I think that "wrong type" (referring to OMNI, apparently) of antenna is
perfect, given there are a few access points within range.

I'll stand by my statement. Unless you're running a mesh network, an
omni at the client end is a bad idea. The client knows the direction
of the desired access point and should use a directional antenna to
minimize interference. In my limited experience (I ran a small WISP
and neighborhood LAN/WLAN for a few years) interference is the most
serious impediment to reliable operation. The more you can do to NOT
hear the undesired stations, the more reliable the connection.

You can
"bridge" multiple access points for better throughput ...

Sorta. You can do route switching easily enough, but load balancing
between multiple internet connections can't be done without IP
bonding, which requires everyone's cooperation (including the ISP's).
The problem is that you can't use multiple ISP's to improve the
download speed from a single connection. For example, if you want to
download a large file, it will only go as fast as the speed of the
fastest ISP connection. The other WAN interfaces remain comatose
because there's no way to bond the single destination IP to two
different download streams and routes. You can download something
else using the 2nd WAN interface, but you can't use it to increase the
speed of the first. Uploading has a similar limitation, where you
can't improve the speed to a single connection. Where such routers
work best is if there is a LAN full of users sharing multiple WAN
connections, not for a single user looking for "better throughput..."

I've used a few of these with moderate success:
http://www.edimax.com/en/produce_list.php?pl1_id=3&pl2_id=
(See load balancing and multi-homing routers near bottom of page).

Incidentally, multiple cient radios, run to a passive combiner in a
single omni antenna is a total loser. The FCC specifically proscribes
synchronizing wi-fi radios. Even if the isolation can be increased
sufficiently to prevent receiver overload, it's highly probable that a
receive packet will arrive exactly when some other client radio goes
into transmit. Some relief can be obtained by using different
non-overlapping channels (1, 6, 11), but only with expensive bandpass
cavity filters. The spread spectrum spreads quite nicely into the
spectrum of the adjacent radio.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
packets (and their contents) you detect?

Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.

Bill Kearney wrote:
My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
packets (and their contents) you detect?

Is a unsecured wifi AP more like putting some benches on the sidewalk in
front of your house or a house with an unlocked front door?

This would a good example where the "law" isn't settled.

Unlike the door example, where there is millenia of houses and doorways
to establish a fairly common understanding of boundaries and permissions
required (and even then, it varies among places, right?)

To a first order, if you own one endpoint of the link (i.e the AP), then
you get to look at what its carrying. Unless you're a "common carrier"
or "utility" sort of organization.

And how far does YOUR liability extend, if, say, that miscreant out
front is using your AP to organize a terrorist plot? ISPs have a "safe
harbor": if they don't look at the content, they're not responsible.

Or, does having that open AP give you plausible deniability, and the
SODDI (Some other dude did it) defense... Hey man, it wasn't me
downloading copyrighted music to that IP, it must have been some other
dude with a laptop in a car out front. Bummer that I don't have any
traffic logs.


Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.

In article ,
Bill Kearney wrote:

My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
packets (and their contents) you detect?

Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.

As far as the FCC is concerned, I suspect that the usual "third party
reception" rules would apply. If the communication is transmitted
over the airwaves but is not intended for you, you're permitted to
intercept the communication but *not* to make gainful personal use of
what you overhear.

There was one company which tried to prosecute some local "wardrivers"
who had publicized the fact that the company was running an open
wireless network. The FCC not only refused to pursue their complaint
(pointing out that the company had created the problem and failed to
mitigate it by turning on WEP), but cited the company for running an
illegal Part 15 network (they were using external high-power
amplifiers on their APs).

I'm reasonably sure that any criminal actions you implement with the
use of such data (e.g. making any unauthorized access to a protected
computer system, etc.) would *NOT* seen as legitimate by The Powers
That Be, even if you gained knowledge of that data by scarfing it off
of your own access point during an unauthorized use thereof.

As I understand it, there isn't any standard interpretation (even in
under U.S. laws) as to what rights-of-usage apply to an open access
point, in the absence of a statement by the AP's owner as to what the
rules are. The FCC doesn't appear to consider this aspect of the
wireless problem to be part of their jurisdiction.

I believe that in some areas, using such an AP without having received
some explicit form of permission is considered to be a tort (a civil
wrong) and the owner could file suit against you. Using the AP to
break into a computer network (e.g. accessing files, etc.) could
easily qualify as a prosecutable "computer crime".

I've read that some municipalities have passed a rule which says that
the act of setting up an insecure access point, and broadcasting
beacons "to the wind", counts as something akin to an open
invitation... enough so that the use of the AP without explicit
permission isn't considered a crime, or (I think) even a tort. This
might especially be true in the case of those APs/routers which come
with a WEP password pre-installed (the 2Wire models are one example)
and in which the owner must explicitly disable the security feature if
s/he decides that this is appropriate.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Dave Platt wrote:

....

It has been my experience, 1 in 10,000 know what they are doing ...
basically, it is a moot point.

Regards,
JS

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:32:40 -0500, "Bill Kearney"
wrote:

My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
packets (and their contents) you detect?

Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.

Nope. Two wrongs don't make a right. You'll also find that "an eye
for an eye" and retailiation are not actionable in the USA legal
system. Simply having your rights violated, does not magically make
it open season on the perpetrator. The courts are expected to deal
out the necessary justice, not you. For example, catching a burglar
in the act does not give you the right to pound him into the ground.
You can and probably will be charged with battery for doing that.

I have some experience and opinions with Wi-Fi related crimes and
enforcement, but I don't wanna start yet another political discussion.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:32:40 -0500, "Bill Kearney"
wrote:

My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
packets (and their contents) you detect?

Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.

Nope. Two wrongs don't make a right. You'll also find that "an eye
for an eye" and retailiation are not actionable in the USA legal
system. Simply having your rights violated, does not magically make
it open season on the perpetrator. The courts are expected to deal
out the necessary justice, not you. For example, catching a burglar
in the act does not give you the right to pound him into the ground.
You can and probably will be charged with battery for doing that.

I have some experience and opinions with Wi-Fi related crimes and
enforcement, but I don't wanna start yet another political discussion.


----------


Just like feces and politicians, politics is a fact of life.

Where's my coffee...? G


Ed, N2ECW

Ed Cregger wrote:

...
Just like feces and politicians, politics is a fact of life.

Where's my coffee...? G


Ed, N2ECW

LOL!

Best post I ever seen you do! GRIN

Warm regards,
JS

Just like feces and politicians, politics is a fact of life.

Where's my coffee...? G


Ed, N2ECW

Here's my favorite political tirade. It seems the russkis underestimated
the destructive power of the propaganda and now we are all screwed.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32cxf_yuri-bezmenov

I'd say stealing is bit strong, I run an open wireless access point
here, its' SSID is "WelcomeAboard!"

My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.

LMAO! My SSID is the same as my front gate Password. That way I never have
to worry about opening it when I get home from work and the party is always
in full swing when I get there! It's a little bit bothersome when dead
bodies turn up in the moat though!