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information suppression by universities
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
... John Smith wrote: JB wrote: ... Needs to be reminded that gravity doesn't work that way. Stand on your head and try it. Better yet, grab a hand full of plastic, glass, metal, wood, etc. and toss it into a mud-puddle, come back in a few million years and see what you can "dig up", what has "evolved" into being ... While I cannot absolutely rule out molecules, atoms and other assorted particles, materials and wavelengths of energies arranging themselves into complex organisms, at least one of which has self-awareness--it flies in the face of all forms of logic/maths/sciences I have ever had contact with ... but true, ya' never know, ya' just never know. Self-arranging and self replication are actually easy enough to do that the old definition of life that depends on that have been discarded for much tighter definitions, Otherwise we would already be able to claim that we created life. As an example, lipids, or phospholipids, are a common substance (read oils) that have the tendency to form into small bilayer spheres that isolate the interior from the exterior world. Then what is needed is for the right compounds to get trapped inside that sphere, and maybe something interesting will happen. http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2...npu=1&mbid=yhp A immune system analog: http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2002/nanoarch.htm Point is, these things are not some impossible to happen, "just so" scheme. As time goes on, it looks more and more like on a planet capable of sustaining life, life will happen. Now if someone wanted to claim that some entity made that planet that could support life, then these things happened - that is a different story. - 73 de Mike N3LI - None of this disproves the idea that the universe is created along with the laws of physics and the bio-chemical engines that conform to the will of God. Let's face it, science doesn't disprove creation theory at all. It simply tries to explain and make use of what we are provided with. Doesn't mean we shouldn't give thanks. The Bible explanation of creation isn't more specific than what was appropriate for a developing intellect. Any one with any true intellect will be in awe with the realization that all of the laws of Physics, the extremely refined and complex Bio-Chemical engines that contribute to life in all its forms, and the extreme odds against a planet with the narrow margin of environmental conditions, all would fit the definition of the greatest miracle known. To be known by the only species enabled to know it. Whereas we struggle to understand where we are and what we are capable of in the here and now (and fall miserably short) The Bible actually dares to and does predict the future and stands as the most insightful understanding of our past, our nature, and hope for the future. I can certainly understand how people could have a beef with "religion". After all, the Bible even warns us of superstitious people, God haters, hypocrites. Jesus himself warns in his parables that many would be among the righteous planted by the enemy to discourage, usurp and mislead. Who doesn't know of those in a group that gossip and tear down others. It's like a boat on the ocean and some are chopping up the main mast for firewood because they just want to be comfortable, while some are chopping a hole in the hull because they are curious of what is on the other side and have no discipline or forethought. He never said it would be easy. |
information suppression by universities
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:42:09 GMT, "JB" wrote:
He never said it would be easy. and he made it more difficult by not saying it in English (just another example of information suppression by churches if we are to keep even slightly on topic). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
information suppression by universities
"Richard Clark" wrote in message
... On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:42:09 GMT, "JB" wrote: He never said it would be easy. and he made it more difficult by not saying it in English (just another example of information suppression by churches if we are to keep even slightly on topic). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Are you always this whimsical? I would point you to Acts chapter 2 but you obviously haven't read any of the Bible or have no reading comprehension. If you were taught that someone's opinion is more important than your own investigation, you are misled. Perhaps you haven't been in a book store lately. If you are skeptical of the translation, bravo! You understand that men can fail. Get a parallel Bible and see how closely the meaning follows. You will find instances of references of what was to come, and what has very nearly completed. |
information suppression by universities
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:01:27 GMT, "JB" wrote not in Aramaic:
I would point you to Acts chapter 2 but So much for testifying, thanx for the Acts of omission. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
information suppression by universities
Michael Coslo wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:03:30 -0500, Michael Coslo wrote: I will sell bottles of the miracle liquid for 1000 dollars per liter. However, as everyone knows, ther eis nothing like freshness for the important compounds, so for 25 thousand dollars plus air and food expensies, I will come to visit and pee on your speakers...... - 73 de Mike N3LI - Sorry, but a similar product has already been invented and been on the market for about 5 years: http://j-walk.com/other/wifispray/ Oh dear, people have to look out for bogus products like that! My wizz is the wonderful wizz, the wizz that was, becuz becuz becuz becuz...... becuz of the wonderful things it does.... The ladyfriend would probably buy the pink antennas. She just bought a pink bicycle. In disgust, I bought her pink garden tools and a stuffed pink pig. That might also explain why I'm spending the evening posting useless usenet drivel, instead of engaging in debauchery. Anyway, pink is the "in" color, so I guess it's ok: http://images.google.com/images?q=pink+camouflage http://images.google.com/images?q=pink+products Pink really does suck as a color. My mentor, Opus the penguin, said it best. If a million people believe a wrong thing, it is still a wrong thing. - 73 d eMike N3LI - Hey, wait! I am selling that exact product for $10.00 USD, you pay shipping... :-) Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
Michael Coslo wrote:
... Your response is that I am fecal matter on your shoe. I am the idiot. - 73 de Mike N3LI - See, you even missed the disdain I hold for you and the ridiculous nature I consider you posts to be composed of ... else you would have been a LOT MORE upset ... read my last post again idiot, I consider you and all your text worthless ... if there was ever a doubt, this clears it, I hope ... and, have a nice day. :-) Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... None of this disproves the idea that the universe is created along with the laws of physics and the bio-chemical engines that conform to the will of God. Let's face it, science doesn't disprove creation theory at all. It simply tries to explain and make use of what we are provided with. Doesn't mean we shouldn't give thanks. The Bible explanation of creation isn't more specific than what was appropriate for a developing intellect. Any one with any true intellect will be in awe with the realization that all of the laws of Physics, the extremely refined and complex Bio-Chemical engines that contribute to life in all its forms, and the extreme odds against a planet with the narrow margin of environmental conditions, all would fit the definition of the greatest miracle known. To be known by the only species enabled to know it. Whereas we struggle to understand where we are and what we are capable of in the here and now (and fall miserably short) The Bible actually dares to and does predict the future and stands as the most insightful understanding of our past, our nature, and hope for the future. I can certainly understand how people could have a beef with "religion". After all, the Bible even warns us of superstitious people, God haters, hypocrites. Jesus himself warns in his parables that many would be among the righteous planted by the enemy to discourage, usurp and mislead. Who doesn't know of those in a group that gossip and tear down others. It's like a boat on the ocean and some are chopping up the main mast for firewood because they just want to be comfortable, while some are chopping a hole in the hull because they are curious of what is on the other side and have no discipline or forethought. He never said it would be easy. Man, when good reasoning, common sense and a good education finally hit you ... your post, above, is going to be a real embarrassment ... :-( Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
Richard Clark wrote:
... and he made it more difficult by not saying it in English (just another example of information suppression by churches if we are to keep even slightly on topic). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Ahh, Richard, you again ... If not for idiots, such as you, my life would grow boring ... but then, you already know that ... BIG smile Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Are you always this whimsical? I would point you to Acts chapter 2 but you obviously haven't read any of the Bible or have no reading comprehension. If you were taught that someone's opinion is more important than your own investigation, you are misled. Perhaps you haven't been in a book store lately. If you are skeptical of the translation, bravo! You understand that men can fail. Get a parallel Bible and see how closely the meaning follows. You will find instances of references of what was to come, and what has very nearly completed. The idiot is entertaining, if nothing else, huh? But, little use to most here ... :-( Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
Richard Clark wrote:
... So much for testifying, thanx for the Acts of omission. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Yanno, this past week, I was devoid of idiots ... I had to come her for my "idiot ration", thanks ... :-) Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
"John Smith" wrote in message ... JB wrote: ... None of this disproves the idea that the universe is created along with the laws of physics and the bio-chemical engines that conform to the will of God. Let's face it, science doesn't disprove creation theory at all. It simply tries to explain and make use of what we are provided with. Doesn't mean we shouldn't give thanks. The Bible explanation of creation isn't more specific than what was appropriate for a developing intellect. Any one with any true intellect will be in awe with the realization that all of the laws of Physics, the extremely refined and complex Bio-Chemical engines that contribute to life in all its forms, and the extreme odds against a planet with the narrow margin of environmental conditions, all would fit the definition of the greatest miracle known. To be known by the only species enabled to know it. Whereas we struggle to understand where we are and what we are capable of in the here and now (and fall miserably short) The Bible actually dares to and does predict the future and stands as the most insightful understanding of our past, our nature, and hope for the future. I can certainly understand how people could have a beef with "religion". After all, the Bible even warns us of superstitious people, God haters, hypocrites. Jesus himself warns in his parables that many would be among the righteous planted by the enemy to discourage, usurp and mislead. Who doesn't know of those in a group that gossip and tear down others. It's like a boat on the ocean and some are chopping up the main mast for firewood because they just want to be comfortable, while some are chopping a hole in the hull because they are curious of what is on the other side and have no discipline or forethought. He never said it would be easy. Man, when good reasoning, common sense and a good education finally hit you ... your post, above, is going to be a real embarrassment ... :-( Is that a threat? Let me know when you have proved that rocks came out of nothing, spontaneously. Then prove life sprang up out of rocks, then prove you sprang up out of that. You have a long way to go in your religion. In any case, good reasoning, common sense and good education Left the country long ago. The dating issue is the only real point of contention, but the Bible doesn't really specify a date for creation or if it refers to the whole universe or to our solar system or out world. The specific details of creation, as in how it was accomplished just aren't there. It's easy for you to say billions because no one you know was there. My point is: Science can't prove so you shouldn't slam the book shut just yet. When you meet your maker, you will have more than your ego to worry about. |
information suppression by universities
"John Smith" wrote in message
... JB wrote: ... None of this disproves the idea that the universe is created along with the laws of physics and the bio-chemical engines that conform to the will of God. Let's face it, science doesn't disprove creation theory at all. It simply tries to explain and make use of what we are provided with. Doesn't mean we shouldn't give thanks. The Bible explanation of creation isn't more specific than what was appropriate for a developing intellect. Any one with any true intellect will be in awe with the realization that all of the laws of Physics, the extremely refined and complex Bio-Chemical engines that contribute to life in all its forms, and the extreme odds against a planet with the narrow margin of environmental conditions, all would fit the definition of the greatest miracle known. To be known by the only species enabled to know it. Whereas we struggle to understand where we are and what we are capable of in the here and now (and fall miserably short) The Bible actually dares to and does predict the future and stands as the most insightful understanding of our past, our nature, and hope for the future. I can certainly understand how people could have a beef with "religion". After all, the Bible even warns us of superstitious people, God haters, hypocrites. Jesus himself warns in his parables that many would be among the righteous planted by the enemy to discourage, usurp and mislead. Who doesn't know of those in a group that gossip and tear down others. It's like a boat on the ocean and some are chopping up the main mast for firewood because they just want to be comfortable, while some are chopping a hole in the hull because they are curious of what is on the other side and have no discipline or forethought. He never said it would be easy. Man, when good reasoning, common sense and a good education finally hit you ... your post, above, is going to be a real embarrassment ... :-( Sorry from some difficult sentences but I'm sure you can sound it out ok. |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Is that a threat? Let me know when you have proved that rocks came out of nothing, spontaneously. Then prove life sprang up out of rocks, then prove you sprang up out of that. You have a long way to go in your religion. In any case, good reasoning, common sense and good education Left the country long ago. The dating issue is the only real point of contention, but the Bible doesn't really specify a date for creation or if it refers to the whole universe or to our solar system or out world. The specific details of creation, as in how it was accomplished just aren't there. It's easy for you to say billions because no one you know was there. My point is: Science can't prove so you shouldn't slam the book shut just yet. When you meet your maker, you will have more than your ego to worry about. Brother, at 6' 2" I make no threats ... all you see is me for a few seconds ... I don't play games. I don't intimidate, if you stand in my presence, you will know it. So, get past that jerk, this is simply all about text and discussion ... You are an idiot in my book. I will not attempt to hide that from your. Your arguments are shallow and repeat those make over decades ... if you can do nothing else, could you at least attempt to be entertaining, please? Bible? I don't remember I ever mentioned that ... what I am talking about is pure logic. Remember maggots and spontaneous generation? Is this what you once more propose? ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IDIOTS! A dime a dozen, I tell ya ... Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Is that a threat? Let me know when you have proved that rocks came out of nothing, spontaneously. Then prove life sprang up out of rocks, then prove you sprang up out of that. You have a long way to go in your religion. In any case, good reasoning, common sense and good education Left the country long ago. The dating issue is the only real point of contention, but the Bible doesn't really specify a date for creation or if it refers to the whole universe or to our solar system or out world. The specific details of creation, as in how it was accomplished just aren't there. It's easy for you to say billions because no one you know was there. My point is: Science can't prove so you shouldn't slam the book shut just yet. When you meet your maker, you will have more than your ego to worry about. Brother, at 6' 2" I make no threats ... all you see is me for a few seconds ... I don't play games. I don't intimidate, if you stand in my presence, you will know it. So, get past that jerk, this is simply all about text and discussion ... You are an idiot in my book. I will not attempt to hide that from you. Your arguments are shallow and repeat those made over decades ... if you can do nothing else, could you at least attempt to be entertaining, please? Bible? I don't remember I ever mentioned that ... what I am talking about is pure logic. Remember maggots and spontaneous generation? Is this what you once more propose? ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IDIOTS! A dime a dozen, I tell ya ... Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
Is that a threat? ... Yanno'? Dummy, the last time I had to have a physical altercation was in 1999 ... a lady had her purse snatched, I had to run the guy down and physically take it back, he didn't offer it ... she thanked me, she was nice ... Everyone else in life thinks me a nice guy, I like it that way ... :-) Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Sorry from some difficult sentences but I'm sure you can sound it out ok. Absolutely, from my background in education ... you wouldn't even begin to believe what I know about you, you tell it all, the omissions are equally as important as the details you provide ... but then, you SHOULD already have know that ... don't even bother consider such in the future .... please. Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Sorry from some difficult sentences but I'm sure you can sound it out ok. Absolutely, from my background in education ... you wouldn't even begin to believe what I know about you, you tell it all, the omissions are equally as important as the details you provide ... but then, you SHOULD already have know that ... don't even bother considering such in the future .... please. Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
Absolutely, from my background in education ... you wouldn't even begin
to believe what I know about you, you tell it all, the omissions are equally as important as the details you provide ... but then, you SHOULD already have know that ... don't even bother considering such in the future ... please. Regards, JS Sorry OM you kept dropping out. |
information suppression by universities
"John Smith" wrote in message
... JB wrote: Is that a threat? ... Yanno'? Dummy, the last time I had to have a physical altercation was in 1999 ... a lady had her purse snatched, I had to run the guy down and physically take it back, he didn't offer it ... she thanked me, she was nice ... Everyone else in life thinks me a nice guy, I like it that way ... :-) Regards, JS So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way indicates you have belligerent tendencies and probably a fascist. The multiple posting may very well mean that you take quite a while to calm down to sanity when you flip out. Work on that or everyone will know where your buttons are and you will be too easily manipulated. But then, you might not have a job unless you were easily manipulated. Another paradox. Teachers, God bless them, have the position where they assemble knowledge that has been passed to them and must unquestioningly accept that knowledge or take considerable time out to investigate that knowledge themselves. It is a major paradox. There once was an old saying, but it is too unkind. I would like to rephrase it; Those who do, do and those who teach, don't have time to do. |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way indicates ... No, actually not. However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Sorry OM you kept dropping out. Hmmm, "check the equipment on that end", obviously you have a loose connection--somewhere. :-) Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way
indicates No, actually not. However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. It can be a better teacher than the classroom. I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. It can be a better teacher than the classroom. I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. Here. Take your "Last Man Standing" award, enjoy ... Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
On Dec 4, 3:02*pm, "JB" wrote:
So, you're a legend in your own mind. *Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. *However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." *People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. *Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. *They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. *Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. *Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. *It can be a better teacher than the classroom. *I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. What on Earth is going on here? So you have a conflict? What do you both want of each other so this can be put aside if you so wish? The subject was that many technical people are getting laid off. This removes them from access to public university white papers. After a year or so they will be encouraged to look for a alternative career They then find that that University white papers are not open source to facilitate recomended change Universities widen the Rust Belt towards both coasts. Universities decline in services without public funds Universities react and recruit teachers from India to prevent furthur spread of the Rust Belt but efforts to late. America becomes the latest Empire to bite the dust as a Mexican becomes P=resident and encourages change over from corn to hemp and all are happy overnight. The audacity of hope fades away. |
information suppression by universities
Art Unwin wrote:
On Dec 4, 3:02 pm, "JB" wrote: So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. It can be a better teacher than the classroom. I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. What on Earth is going on here? So you have a conflict? What do you both want of each other so this can be put aside if you so wish? The subject was that many technical people are getting laid off. This removes them from access to public university white papers. After a year or so they will be encouraged to look for a alternative career They then find that that University white papers are not open source to facilitate recomended change Universities widen the Rust Belt towards both coasts. Universities decline in services without public funds Universities react and recruit teachers from India to prevent furthur spread of the Rust Belt but efforts to late. America becomes the latest Empire to bite the dust as a Mexican becomes P=resident and encourages change over from corn to hemp and all are happy overnight. The audacity of hope fades away. Phew! Stop to catch your breath Art. 8^) Actually, I wondered what this thread was all about. So I'll bite. Much of what is out there is free for all. But the source of the money for research is often from companies who are using the research to enhance their companies position in the marketplace. Now we can discuss how much of a public university is actually public, and whether or not it should all be public or not, but the background has shifted. Once upon a time, industry funded an amount of their assets toward research. As time went on, some folks decided that that research money was wasted, and was better spent giving back to the shareholders. That was a smart move - if you couldn't see past the end of your nose. So after it was seen that wrecking your R and D department was a great way to become a technological backwater, they started looking for a less expensive way to get research done. The answer was the universities. So here we are. We can argue about whether or not it should be all open source or not, but from industries perspective, not having the research open to all makes sense. Needless to say, a one paragraph dissertation of the situation is necessarily truncated as all hell.... Not to say one way is better than any other, although personally, I kind of liked the older paradigm of company based R and D. But the new method sends money to the universities. - 73 de Mike N3LI - da village idiot......... |
information suppression by universities
Michael Coslo wrote:
... So after it was seen that wrecking your R and D department was a great way to become a technological backwater, they started looking for a less expensive way to get research done. The answer was the universities. So here we are. We can argue about whether or not it should be all open source or not, but from industries perspective, not having the research open to all makes sense. ... - 73 de Mike N3LI - da village idiot......... Excellent point Mike. When I returned to bring my degree up, the department received quite a chunk of money from the military, and a military contractor, for research into weapons targeting. A sane mind does need to be in control and differentiate between TRUE "public knowledge" and non-public knowledge ... And, a public college should refrain from getting into the position of competition with private industry (or, even influencing competition in public industry)--EVEN if the money and perks are tempting. We used to have men of such high standards, morals and ethics involved that there was little if any controversy ... :-( Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
On Dec 5, 8:21*am, Michael Coslo wrote:
Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 4, 3:02 pm, "JB" wrote: So, you're a legend in your own mind. *Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. *However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." *People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. *Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. *They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. *Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. *Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. *It can be a better teacher than the classroom. *I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. What on Earth is going on here? So you have a conflict? What do you both want of each other so this can be put aside if you so wish? The subject was that many technical people are getting laid off. This removes them from access to public university white papers. *After a year or so they will be encouraged to look for a alternative career They then find that that University white papers are not open source to facilitate recomended change Universities widen the Rust Belt towards both coasts. Universities decline in services without public funds Universities react and recruit teachers from India *to prevent furthur spread of the Rust Belt but efforts to late. America becomes the latest Empire to bite the dust as a Mexican becomes P=resident and encourages change *over from corn to hemp and all are happy overnight. The audacity of hope fades away. * * * * Phew! Stop to catch your breath Art. 8^) * * * * Actually, I wondered what this thread was all about. * * * * So I'll bite. * * * * Much of what is out there is free for all. * * * * But the source of the money for research is often from companies who are using the research to enhance their companies position in the marketplace. * * * * Now we can discuss how much of a public university is actually public, and whether or not it should all be public or not, but the background has shifted. * * * * Once upon a time, industry funded an amount of their assets toward research. As time went on, some folks decided that that research money was wasted, and was better spent giving back to the shareholders. That was a smart move - if you couldn't see past the end of your nose. * * * * So after it was seen that wrecking your R and D department was a great way to become a technological backwater, they started looking for a less expensive way to get research done. The answer was the universities. So here we are. We can argue about whether or not it should be all open source or not, but from industries perspective, not having the research open to all makes sense. Needless to say, a one paragraph dissertation of the situation is necessarily truncated as all hell.... * * * * Not to say one way is better than any other, although personally, I kind of liked the older paradigm of company based R and D. But the new method sends money to the universities. * * * * - 73 de Mike N3LI - *da village idiot......... Mike My point is that IF the work of Universities is to be published it should be open source instead of giving it to a private entity. I see no point in preventing oversite by the public at large from seeing how their taxes are being spent. The fruits of our taxes should not be channelled off to prevent private institutions from going bankrupt. Private companies can always, and do, have their own Rand D if they want totally privacy for commercial reasons. PARTIAL funding does not give them the right to the same privacy. As the pool of engineers get smaller so does the disemination of scientific information,. Is that what America really want for the future? |
information suppression by universities
"Art Unwin" wrote in message ... My point is that IF the work of Universities is to be published it should be open source instead of giving it to a private entity. but many universities ARE private entities. And if private funds are used for research, or funds from industry sponsors are used, then there should be no doubt that the funder's should decide what gets published and what they keep private. I see no point in preventing oversite by the public at large from seeing how their taxes are being spent. have you actually gone to a public university and asked for access to their library where such things are normally archived? personally i don't think i need to pay to have everything done at a public university published for the world. that would be a bigger expense than the research is actually worth in many cases. As the pool of engineers get smaller so does the disemination of scientific information,. Engineers are NOT scientists. Engineers design things that perform specific functions, they may solve practical problems, but they are NOT the ones doing most of the basic research type of work. At my last job they wanted to change my job title from 'Engineer' to 'Scientist', this was a place that DID perform research that was funded by industry, most of which was kept private for use by the funders. I refused the job title change because I preferred to do the practical stuff and make products for the customers that did something useful instead of the research and experimentation and writing reports. |
information suppression by universities
On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:55:55 -0800 (PST), Art Unwin
wrote: I see no point in preventing oversite by the public at large from seeing how their taxes are being spent. I wonder how long that sentiment would last if we demanded full disclosure and retention of patent rights from those on the dole who claim they are inventors? * * * * T I L T !!!! * * * * The question becomes: Are you willing to pay back your social security to the taxpayers who support you? Knowing how that answer will be evaded, avoided, denied, dismissed (each or all with manufactured outrage suited to this Soap Opera), no, you won't. As Perot used to say, "That dog don't hunt!" As such, the status quo will be maintained and inventors on the dole will keep their dignity and professors will keep their research. Equilibrium! ;-) 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
information suppression by universities
Art Unwin wrote:
On Dec 5, 8:21 am, Michael Coslo wrote: Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 4, 3:02 pm, "JB" wrote: So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. It can be a better teacher than the classroom. I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. What on Earth is going on here? So you have a conflict? What do you both want of each other so this can be put aside if you so wish? The subject was that many technical people are getting laid off. This removes them from access to public university white papers. After a year or so they will be encouraged to look for a alternative career They then find that that University white papers are not open source to facilitate recomended change Universities widen the Rust Belt towards both coasts. Universities decline in services without public funds Universities react and recruit teachers from India to prevent furthur spread of the Rust Belt but efforts to late. America becomes the latest Empire to bite the dust as a Mexican becomes P=resident and encourages change over from corn to hemp and all are happy overnight. The audacity of hope fades away. Phew! Stop to catch your breath Art. 8^) Actually, I wondered what this thread was all about. So I'll bite. Much of what is out there is free for all. But the source of the money for research is often from companies who are using the research to enhance their companies position in the marketplace. Now we can discuss how much of a public university is actually public, and whether or not it should all be public or not, but the background has shifted. Once upon a time, industry funded an amount of their assets toward research. As time went on, some folks decided that that research money was wasted, and was better spent giving back to the shareholders. That was a smart move - if you couldn't see past the end of your nose. So after it was seen that wrecking your R and D department was a great way to become a technological backwater, they started looking for a less expensive way to get research done. The answer was the universities. So here we are. We can argue about whether or not it should be all open source or not, but from industries perspective, not having the research open to all makes sense. Needless to say, a one paragraph dissertation of the situation is necessarily truncated as all hell.... Not to say one way is better than any other, although personally, I kind of liked the older paradigm of company based R and D. But the new method sends money to the universities. - 73 de Mike N3LI - da village idiot......... Mike My point is that IF the work of Universities is to be published it should be open source instead of giving it to a private entity. I see no point in preventing oversite by the public at large from seeing how their taxes are being spent. The fruits of our taxes should not be channelled off to prevent private institutions from going bankrupt. Private companies can always, and do, have their own Rand D if they want totally privacy for commercial reasons. Hi Art, not saying that I disagree with your sentiments, but the paradigm shifted, and we allowed it to happen. Bell labs is a good (bad?) example of just what happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs Is an interesting reference, you really should read it. They sure came up with a lot of interesting innovations and inventions. But what is telling is the last two sentences of the article: Start quote As of July 2008, however, only four scientists remained in physics basic research according to a report by the scientific journal Nature.[4] On August 28, 2008, Alcatel-Lucent announced it was pulling out of basic science, material physics, and semiconductor research, and it will instead focus on more immediately marketable areas including networking, high-speed electronics, wireless networks, nanotechnology and software.[5] End quote No doubt their next quarter profits will look good. Or did. They'll have to find something for an encore to increase the profits next quarter. But for companies that rely on innovation and invention, they are eating their seed corn. - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
information suppression by universities
On Dec 8, 12:07*pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 5, 8:21 am, Michael Coslo wrote: Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 4, 3:02 pm, "JB" wrote: So, you're a legend in your own mind. *Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. *However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." *People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text.. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. *Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. *They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. *Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. *Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. *It can be a better teacher than the classroom. *I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. What on Earth is going on here? So you have a conflict? What do you both want of each other so this can be put aside if you so wish? The subject was that many technical people are getting laid off. This removes them from access to public university white papers. *After a year or so they will be encouraged to look for a alternative career They then find that that University white papers are not open source to facilitate recomended change Universities widen the Rust Belt towards both coasts. Universities decline in services without public funds Universities react and recruit teachers from India *to prevent furthur spread of the Rust Belt but efforts to late. America becomes the latest Empire to bite the dust as a Mexican becomes P=resident and encourages change *over from corn to hemp and all are happy overnight. The audacity of hope fades away. * * * * Phew! Stop to catch your breath Art. 8^) * * * * Actually, I wondered what this thread was all about. * * * * So I'll bite. * * * * Much of what is out there is free for all. * * * * But the source of the money for research is often from companies who are using the research to enhance their companies position in the marketplace. * * * * Now we can discuss how much of a public university is actually public, and whether or not it should all be public or not, but the background has shifted. * * * * Once upon a time, industry funded an amount of their assets toward research. As time went on, some folks decided that that research money was wasted, and was better spent giving back to the shareholders. That was a smart move - if you couldn't see past the end of your nose. * * * * So after it was seen that wrecking your R and D department was a great way to become a technological backwater, they started looking for a less expensive way to get research done. The answer was the universities. So here we are. We can argue about whether or not it should be all open source or not, but from industries perspective, not having the research open to all makes sense. Needless to say, a one paragraph dissertation of the situation is necessarily truncated as all hell.... * * * * Not to say one way is better than any other, although personally, I kind of liked the older paradigm of company based R and D. But the new method sends money to the universities. * * * * - 73 de Mike N3LI - *da village idiot......... Mike My point is that IF the work of Universities is to be published it should be open source instead of giving it to a private entity. I see no point in preventing oversite by the public at large from seeing how their taxes are being spent. The fruits of our taxes should not be channelled off to prevent private institutions from going bankrupt. *Private companies can always, and do, *have their own Rand D if they want totally privacy for commercial reasons. Hi Art, not saying that I disagree with your sentiments, but the paradigm shifted, and we allowed it to happen. Bell labs is a good (bad?) example of just what happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs Is an interesting reference, you really should read it. They sure came up with a lot of interesting innovations and inventions. But what is telling is the last two sentences of the article: Start quote As of July 2008, however, only four scientists remained in physics basic research according to a report by the scientific journal Nature.[4] On August 28, 2008, Alcatel-Lucent announced it was pulling out of basic science, material physics, and semiconductor research, and it will instead focus on more immediately marketable areas including networking, high-speed electronics, wireless networks, nanotechnology and software.[5] End quote No doubt their next quarter profits will look good. Or did. They'll have to find something for an encore to increase the profits next quarter. But for companies that rely on innovation and invention, they are eating their seed corn. * * * * - 73 de Mike N3LI - Mike, I see no end to the present trend. A few decades ago GE here in Bloomington started moving its manufacturing products overseas only later to sell as they moved away from manufacturing and into cash handling businesses such as banking, tv and the like.. Bloomington had a couple of plants making vacuum cleaners, they moved out to Mexico. Beich's candy was sold to a Swiss company Also had a major switch yard on the railroad which is now a waste land.Result We paid for Mitsubishi to settle here to make cars. Insurance companies got bigger here churning money and now import Indian software people as they state american programmers do niot come up to par. The city commerce department encouraged hotels to be built together with the import of 10K mexican workerst6o keep them clean and hospitals became larger as immigrant births ballooned as insurance against deportation which then increased taxes for bilingual education. All this because we moved away from letting the existing market decide as we went global knowing that american ingenuity was the answer to all. Now Universities are getting failing grades thro out the country where their products were intended to be the savior of capatalism which has now changed as entrepreneurs changed the "market" instead of strengthening the infro structure. Now the motor industry wants feed money to continue to build cars with high labor content that cannot compete. So the idea of let the "market" decide has now also disapeared as we nationalise/take over our industries. Americas answer? Pull away from the dissemination of science and try to remold the World (market) to match our needs. Suppression of the meagre results in universities is such a small dent in the overall picture. But all knew what the total end effect would be. History shows that all that seek an empire always over estimate their abilities to retain what their military had won such that another new empire emerges.To increase market size while decreasing population wealth eventually only leads to total domination or widespead civil strife. Greed is a terrible thing Pull up the ladder Jack. To heck with the others i'm O.K. and that's the most important thing for today. Tomorrow is another day |
information suppression by universities
"Art Unwin" wrote in message ... On Dec 8, 12:07 pm, Michael Coslo wrote: Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 5, 8:21 am, Michael Coslo wrote: Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 4, 3:02 pm, "JB" wrote: So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. Regards, JS Environment's no excuse for bad behavior, but it is often the case. Maybe you haven't seen any miracles in yours. They can be found even amongst great turmoil and evil. Try to get out of your comfort zone and travel some, even spend some time in other cultures. Jails of Mexico, Beverly Hills, anywhere. It can be a better teacher than the classroom. I can pray that you're eyes be opened to what you can't see. What on Earth is going on here? So you have a conflict? What do you both want of each other so this can be put aside if you so wish? The subject was that many technical people are getting laid off. This removes them from access to public university white papers. After a year or so they will be encouraged to look for a alternative career They then find that that University white papers are not open source to facilitate recomended change Universities widen the Rust Belt towards both coasts. Universities decline in services without public funds Universities react and recruit teachers from India to prevent furthur spread of the Rust Belt but efforts to late. America becomes the latest Empire to bite the dust as a Mexican becomes P=resident and encourages change over from corn to hemp and all are happy overnight. The audacity of hope fades away. Phew! Stop to catch your breath Art. 8^) Actually, I wondered what this thread was all about. So I'll bite. Much of what is out there is free for all. But the source of the money for research is often from companies who are using the research to enhance their companies position in the marketplace. Now we can discuss how much of a public university is actually public, and whether or not it should all be public or not, but the background has shifted. Once upon a time, industry funded an amount of their assets toward research. As time went on, some folks decided that that research money was wasted, and was better spent giving back to the shareholders. That was a smart move - if you couldn't see past the end of your nose. So after it was seen that wrecking your R and D department was a great way to become a technological backwater, they started looking for a less expensive way to get research done. The answer was the universities. So here we are. We can argue about whether or not it should be all open source or not, but from industries perspective, not having the research open to all makes sense. Needless to say, a one paragraph dissertation of the situation is necessarily truncated as all hell.... Not to say one way is better than any other, although personally, I kind of liked the older paradigm of company based R and D. But the new method sends money to the universities. - 73 de Mike N3LI - da village idiot......... Mike My point is that IF the work of Universities is to be published it should be open source instead of giving it to a private entity. I see no point in preventing oversite by the public at large from seeing how their taxes are being spent. The fruits of our taxes should not be channelled off to prevent private institutions from going bankrupt. Private companies can always, and do, have their own Rand D if they want totally privacy for commercial reasons. Hi Art, not saying that I disagree with your sentiments, but the paradigm shifted, and we allowed it to happen. Bell labs is a good (bad?) example of just what happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs Is an interesting reference, you really should read it. They sure came up with a lot of interesting innovations and inventions. But what is telling is the last two sentences of the article: Start quote As of July 2008, however, only four scientists remained in physics basic research according to a report by the scientific journal Nature.[4] On August 28, 2008, Alcatel-Lucent announced it was pulling out of basic science, material physics, and semiconductor research, and it will instead focus on more immediately marketable areas including networking, high-speed electronics, wireless networks, nanotechnology and software.[5] End quote No doubt their next quarter profits will look good. Or did. They'll have to find something for an encore to increase the profits next quarter. But for companies that rely on innovation and invention, they are eating their seed corn. - 73 de Mike N3LI - Mike, I see no end to the present trend. A few decades ago GE here in Bloomington started moving its manufacturing products overseas only later to sell as they moved away from manufacturing and into cash handling businesses such as banking, tv and the like.. Bloomington had a couple of plants making vacuum cleaners, they moved out to Mexico. Beich's candy was sold to a Swiss company Also had a major switch yard on the railroad which is now a waste land.Result We paid for Mitsubishi to settle here to make cars. Insurance companies got bigger here churning money and now import Indian software people as they state american programmers do niot come up to par. The city commerce department encouraged hotels to be built together with the import of 10K mexican workerst6o keep them clean and hospitals became larger as immigrant births ballooned as insurance against deportation which then increased taxes for bilingual education. All this because we moved away from letting the existing market decide as we went global knowing that american ingenuity was the answer to all. Now Universities are getting failing grades thro out the country where their products were intended to be the savior of capatalism which has now changed as entrepreneurs changed the "market" instead of strengthening the infro structure. Now the motor industry wants feed money to continue to build cars with high labor content that cannot compete. So the idea of let the "market" decide has now also disapeared as we nationalise/take over our industries. Americas answer? Pull away from the dissemination of science and try to remold the World (market) to match our needs. Suppression of the meagre results in universities is such a small dent in the overall picture. But all knew what the total end effect would be. History shows that all that seek an empire always over estimate their abilities to retain what their military had won such that another new empire emerges.To increase market size while decreasing population wealth eventually only leads to total domination or widespead civil strife. Greed is a terrible thing Pull up the ladder Jack. To heck with the others i'm O.K. and that's the most important thing for today. Tomorrow is another day For real. We continue to do this to ourselves. Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVkjCQCTOEI I'm not saying he's right, or that we should MAKE him right, only that this is the perspective of someone who somehow has an interest in looking into it. |
information suppression by universities
On Dec 8, 3:13*pm, "JB" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message ... On Dec 8, 12:07 pm, Michael Coslo wrote: Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 5, 8:21 am, Michael Coslo wrote: Art Unwin wrote: On Dec 4, 3:02 pm, "JB" wrote: So, you're a legend in your own mind. Your reactivity by the way indicates No, actually not. However, as your text indicates, I "AM SOMETHING" you don't see in your ghetto, thanks for the "heads-up." People DO tend to be a product of their environment ... again, reflected in your text. |
information suppression by universities
Art Unwin wrote:
... Look at the bright side Mike, The majority of this group feel O.K. with things as they are, and they represent the smarts of the USA of the past 50 years. Where every thing worth while was discovered thus lessening the need for further education plus strengthening the right to bear arms..........for wild animals ofcourse grin The cities will have their crystal nights ofcourse as they have done in the past in L.A. against those that hoarded the wealth, Actually, the technical aspects and military-ization of our police has changed the terrain. Now you need the equiv or road-side-bombs used in Iraq, flame throwers to burn them in their Kevlar, armor piercing ammunition, small surface to surface missiles, etc. ... not impossible, just more difficult. We now need a civilian group to oversee the president/government--perhaps one which is militia based would be appropriate. It certainly is time this surfaces to the realm of rational discussion ... they are no longer OUR servants! We simply have to get their attention and focus back ... Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
On Dec 8, 5:43*pm, John Smith wrote:
Art Unwin wrote: ... Look at the bright side Mike, The majority of this group feel O.K. with things as they are, and they represent the smarts of the USA of the past 50 years. Where every thing worth while was discovered thus lessening the need for further education plus strengthening the right to bear arms..........for wild animals ofcourse grin The cities will have their crystal nights ofcourse as they have done in the past in L.A. against those that hoarded the wealth, Actually, the technical aspects and military-ization of our police has changed the terrain. *Now you need the equiv or road-side-bombs used in Iraq, flame throwers to burn them in their Kevlar, armor piercing ammunition, small surface to surface missiles, etc. ... not impossible, just more difficult. We now need a civilian group to oversee the president/government--perhaps one which is militia based would be appropriate. *It certainly is time this surfaces to the realm of rational discussion ... they are no longer OUR servants! *We simply have to get their attention and focus back ... Regards, JS I suppose in the cities you have different views of the police but without money they then become part of the public, good or otherwise as in New Orleans, On the other hand gun sales are sky rocketing in the Midwest so one can shoot deer I suppose and I can't see Obama saying "let the public eat cake". On the other side of the coin, if the public is not paid enough to buy the products that they make it becomes a question of living or dying, your choice! Do you think that hams will come to the aid of the government in a case of crisis? I think we should let this thread die before we are accused of sedition Regards Art |
information suppression by universities
Actually, the technical aspects and military-ization of our police has changed the terrain. Now you need the equiv or road-side-bombs used in Iraq, flame throwers to burn them in their Kevlar, armor piercing ammunition, small surface to surface missiles, etc. ... not impossible, just more difficult. We now need a civilian group to oversee the president/government--perhaps one which is militia based would be appropriate. It certainly is time this surfaces to the realm of rational discussion ... they are no longer OUR servants! We simply have to get their attention and focus back ... Regards, JS I suppose in the cities you have different views of the police but without money they then become part of the public, good or otherwise as in New Orleans, On the other hand gun sales are sky rocketing in the Midwest so one can shoot deer I suppose and I can't see Obama saying "let the public eat cake". On the other side of the coin, if the public is not paid enough to buy the products that they make it becomes a question of living or dying, your choice! Do you think that hams will come to the aid of the government in a case of crisis? I think we should let this thread die before we are accused of sedition Regards Art Toilet bombs are more surgical. Catch em where they go. Isn't sedition what we do to get ready for an election? But then you and I don't have the Millions and Billions to overthrow the Government with, so at best we are just nuisance. Actually the cops might sooner or later realize they are just an army dangling off the end of a phone line ready to roll for the biggest liar and might just be doing someone else's dirty work. What's most worrisome is the ones that decide who gets the Gov. jobs or the media jobs in the first place. That's where we have been underestimating the enemy. If some people want to get together to take over something, they can pretty much do it all over people who are trying to be fair about things. Violent revolutions don't happen without lots of people running around with nothing better to do, but technology has a way of putting people way out of reach of such unpleasantness. This is probably the biggest reason things never progressed to a violent revolution like China or Vietnam and capitalism never lost it's place. A well disciplined military probably has lots to do with that too. Obama has been saying "let them eat cake" for a long time. I wonder if anyone caught his Dec 2 governors meeting on the economy where he tells them "...change is going to come from YOU, not from Washington". I was hoping he would at least be willing to learn but the voters have a lot to learn for sure. |
information suppression by universities
Art Unwin wrote:
... I suppose in the cities you have different views of the police but without money they then become part of the public, good or otherwise as in New Orleans, On the other hand gun sales are sky rocketing in the Midwest so one can shoot deer I suppose and I can't see Obama saying "let the public eat cake". On the other side of the coin, if the public is not paid enough to buy the products that they make it becomes a question of living or dying, your choice! Do you think that hams will come to the aid of the government in a case of crisis? I think we should let this thread die before we are accused of sedition Regards Art You are right, if all goes well, we stop paying the crooks and they go home ... however ... if not ... You will need the guns, IF the government has reason to hunt you, you will need the guns for food (you may have to learn to eat government officials!)--while you live off the land ... they are good, the guns. But, doing a "Clint Eastwood" on a swat squad? Hmmm, show me? However, knowing how to make explosives out of obtainable materials may make a person a "technical expert", indeed, it may make one a valid guru--something I have NOT seen in ages! Knowing that perchlorates exist in common bleach and how to use them as oxidizers, this is good! Knowing how to construct a flame thrower out of an air tank off a semi-truck, some tubing, a valve and bicycle pump, and able to use any fuel may just make one a desirable friend ... ya never know, ya just never know ... your best ally? An open mind! One question which is always valid, "Are we men, or are we mice?" (Or, are we sheep, or are we free?) My father was a man (actually, a free man--and a Freemason) ... you will have to watch me and make up your own mind--as to myself ... :-) But then, how do you know I am not just kidding? evil-malicious grin When we see American Terrorists, we WILL know change is in the wind, let it be a good change ... and let them kick those whoosie mooselims butts! Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
... Obama has been saying "let them eat cake" for a long time. I wonder if anyone caught his Dec 2 governors meeting on the economy where he tells them "...change is going to come from YOU, not from Washington". I was hoping he would at least be willing to learn but the voters have a lot to learn for sure. Actually, your brain has turned to jelly from lack of use ... :-( Everything comes from you and me, it a government of the people, by the people and for the people ... Now, let's get to work, give 'em the bums rush, and get rid of this group of crooks! If Obama assists, good enough, if not, let him begone also. Regards, JS |
information suppression by universities
"John Smith" wrote in message ... JB wrote: ... Obama has been saying "let them eat cake" for a long time. I wonder if anyone caught his Dec 2 governors meeting on the economy where he tells them "...change is going to come from YOU, not from Washington". I was hoping he would at least be willing to learn but the voters have a lot to learn for sure. Actually, your brain has turned to jelly from lack of use ... :-( Everything comes from you and me, it a government of the people, by the people and for the people ... Now, let's get to work, give 'em the bums rush, and get rid of this group of crooks! If Obama assists, good enough, if not, let him begone also. Regards, JS Typical red herring argument. When you don't have a answer, then proceed to insults and character assassination. Gee, wasn't Obama from Al Capones neck of the woods? I mean how do you beat up people for votes if you don't have their unions and livelihood in the palm of your hand. Oh! that's right, Obama's not a crook, he's a LAWYER! His favorite idol is Saul Alinsky (who seems to be the hero of the party since so many quote him) who actually worked for Al Capone! Then there's his "spiritual advisor" that he had to distance himself after 20 years of EXPLOITATION of race and class divisions. Republicans keep harping about conservative "values" like personal responsibility and not killing babies for the sake of convenience. Democrats think of the little people as votes and "manure for the revolution" and that its stupid to go down with your team when you can just "throw someone under the bus" (the vernacular of ACORN). The only difference I see is one that is shamed into following their own rules and another who simply changes the rules or the judges. see: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3185000AAwKH7l |
information suppression by universities
JB wrote:
.... Like I say it is a no-brainer, the forefathers gave us a heavy responsibility: Declaration of Independence [Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776] The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. .... As true Americans, we are ordered to take back and restore a sane and just government when our public servants forget their places ... end of story. Regards, JS |
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