The only fault with that conspiracy is that without moral restraint, the
10,000 kill the 1 who is supporting them. Otherwise the best you can
hope
for is a balance of terror.

Sometimes, I am a bit slow on the uptake--I just don't get that thinking.

Actually, a general quip about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.
I notice that UAW rejected the package for the BIG3 Bailout. Who knows
where that's going. I see unions as a part of doing business, but when so
many people are out of work that they do volunteer work, we're screwed.

Since when is responsibility and competition a bad thing? Isn't it what
drives small business AND corporations--even the largest. I mean, when
I had to work for corps and pick-the-bones to survive, everyone was
attempting to get someone fired--to give family, relatives or friends a
shot at the job! ROFLOL Control freaks were the norm, NOT the exception!

I only thank gawd I found a path out ...

It's even worse when things are downsizing and cannibalism sets in. I rode
a few right to the end.

JB wrote:

...
Actually, a general quip about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.
I notice that UAW rejected the package for the BIG3 Bailout. Who knows
where that's going. I see unions as a part of doing business, but when so
many people are out of work that they do volunteer work, we're screwed.


Was teamster in a previous life (well, a younger one), I have nothing
bad to say of unions. I can remember stopping by the pub and being
given a "bad time" by non-union workers in my industry. I started more
than one fight by simply telling them, "I work for over two times as
much as you. I have complete medical, dental and prescriptions. My
retirement goes into a fund which is g-u-a-r-a-n-t-e-e-d. I don't sweat
a few bucks in union dues." -- For some reason, that was all it took!
grin


It's even worse when things are downsizing and cannibalism sets in. I rode
a few right to the end.


Been there, done that (shudder!)

Regards,
JS

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
JB wrote:

...
Actually, a general quip about killing the goose that lays the golden
egg.
I notice that UAW rejected the package for the BIG3 Bailout. Who knows
where that's going. I see unions as a part of doing business, but when
so
many people are out of work that they do volunteer work, we're screwed.


Was teamster in a previous life (well, a younger one), I have nothing
bad to say of unions. I can remember stopping by the pub and being
given a "bad time" by non-union workers in my industry. I started more
than one fight by simply telling them, "I work for over two times as
much as you. I have complete medical, dental and prescriptions. My
retirement goes into a fund which is g-u-a-r-a-n-t-e-e-d. I don't sweat
a few bucks in union dues." -- For some reason, that was all it took!
grin


It's even worse when things are downsizing and cannibalism sets in. I
rode
a few right to the end.


Been there, done that (shudder!)

Regards,
JS

In order for a union to work, there has to be money there that you can
squeeze out of the company. And you have to have a bargaining position. If
what you do prevents the company from having working capital or market
changes force the company into bankruptcy, where is your bargaining
position? If the company and it's industry is indeed viable, go for it.
Corporations have unions but they call them cartels. There has to be a
struggle against the causes of exploitation. You don't want to see
situations like two-tier for employees or CTA voting pay cuts across the
board so they don't lose members who pay dues. Even though they have
hostages. My dad was a teamster for several years, but the pay stunk anyway
so he went to insurance sales during a strike so we wouldn't have to live on
macaroni and cheese. I never cross picket lines, I buy American made
products only or go to the thrift store. OK, I admit it I have bought new
stuff made in China probably by slave or prison labor because you can't even
get some products that are American made anymore. I drive an American car.
This is where it all breaks down, because if you are fighting to get food on
the table and decent wages, there are 10,000 more going out and buying
products made with slave labor and doing volunteer work while living on
pensions. If UAW can't get dues, who will guarantee the pensions? Ponzi?

My other peeve is tons of money out of the retirement fund (PERS) to the
Dems, who have so many other agendas that they conflict. Like selling out
to Chi-comms. They got kicked out of Washington and Oregon, so the Dems
shut down and leased them Long Beach Naval Shipyard to bring in Megatons of
cheap crap into the country. Like gun control. Remember Matewan.
Abortion. Any one who is OK with taking away peoples Constitutional rights
and killing people who don't have a voice might not care about you or me
either. And what's with this gay crap. If people want to do stuff like
that, I certainly don't want it forced on me or my kids.

The Fannie May/Freddie Mac bad loans were guaranteed and forced on the banks
by gov't. mandate and Barney Frank has been saying since 2004 that there was
nothing wrong, even while another Dem was saying it was the regulator's
fault for allowing it (ie we need more cops). I guess that makes Barney
some kind of expert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&NR=1
BTW there is a lot of this pro and con in related YouTubes.

Nothing wrong with having a heart, you gotta care about the consequences
though. And fighting greed with greed gets you more greed.

JB wrote:

...
Nothing wrong with having a heart, you gotta care about the consequences
though. And fighting greed with greed gets you more greed.


As I implied in my previous post, it can be hard to convince people that
they need to responsible and realize that the only way they can get what
they want, need and be prepared for illness and old age, is with their
own hands and job (or, start their own business) ... there still exists
the myth that they can work for cheap with no benefits or retirement,
GUARANTEED, funds and it "will all just work out", or "someone will
provide for them."

If you are working for a company, or in your own business or contracting
and the result is less than satisfactory, quit and go elsewhere. The
crash of the stock market and the future coming times shows the folly of
a "positive attitude", based on irrational grounds.

There seems to be a "myth" going around that "it will all just work
out." And, one can work at a poverty wage and "get ahead."

Like I pointed out, many are ready to fight rather than come to their
senses. My wifes parents worked hard their whole lives. Somehow they
were sold the dream that all it took was hard work and they would be
rewarded--they now are attempting to exist on social security, needless
to say, it ain't workin'! If my father-in-law was a retired UAW worker,
he would have a much different story!

It is fine all these companies run about not providing well for their
workers--but, just let them pay the welfare-funds/medical/drug/etc.
needs of their workers in their old age--NOT ME, my family, or my friends!

Regards,
JS

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, John Smith wrote:
JB wrote:
...
Nothing wrong with having a heart, you gotta care about the consequences
though. *And fighting greed with greed gets you more greed.

As I implied in my previous post, it can be hard to convince people that
they need to responsible and realize that the only way they can get what
they want, need and be prepared for illness and old age, is with their
own hands and job (or, start their own business) ... there still exists
the myth that they can work for cheap with no benefits or retirement,
GUARANTEED, funds and it "will all just work out", or "someone will
provide for them."

If you are working for a company, or in your own business or contracting
and the result is less than satisfactory, quit and go elsewhere. *The
crash of the stock market and the future coming times shows the folly of
a "positive attitude", based on irrational grounds.

There seems to be a "myth" going around that "it will all just work
out." *And, one can work at a poverty wage and "get ahead."

Like I pointed out, many are ready to fight rather than come to their
senses. *My wifes parents worked hard their whole lives. *Somehow they
were sold the dream that all it took was hard work and they would be
rewarded--they now are attempting to exist on social security, needless
to say, it ain't workin'! *If my father-in-law was a retired UAW worker,
he would have a much different story!

It is fine all these companies run about not providing well for their
workers--but, just let them pay the welfare-funds/medical/drug/etc.
needs of their workers in their old age--NOT ME, my family, or my friends!

Regards,
JS

John, some years back the Government aproved the removal of a
percentage of pensioin funds
for their own use as long as the pensions were not in jeopody. In
other words if the funds earned more money than expected
then the company could use that money. So the majority of pension
funds were kept at the prescibed minimum level.
Now pension funds have turned south and the businesses have also
turned south such that they cannot replace the funds removed.
This little pot has started to simmer but has yet to get to the
boiling point. As Yogi Bear said i9t aint over until it is over!
Everything was OK when we let the market decide but then greed changed
the metric of the market.
Art

Art Unwin wrote:

...
John, some years back the Government aproved the removal of a
percentage of pensioin funds
for their own use as long as the pensions were not in jeopody. In
other words if the funds earned more money than expected
then the company could use that money. So the majority of pension
funds were kept at the prescibed minimum level.
Now pension funds have turned south and the businesses have also
turned south such that they cannot replace the funds removed.
This little pot has started to simmer but has yet to get to the
boiling point. As Yogi Bear said i9t aint over until it is over!
Everything was OK when we let the market decide but then greed changed
the metric of the market.
Art

YES! Indeed, it is much worse than that, the gov't has also used SSI
funds by "tossing them into "general funds",
questionable-investing-of-these-funds, etc." Now, they attempt to
"resell" us our SSI with increased taxes and "increased fees." (just
another name for "tax(s.)")

Ever notice how they end up taking library and other public service
funds, tossing 'em into a general fund, then reselling us the services,
again-and-again-and-again-... well, most DON'T seem to! I just brought
this up at a board of supes meeting in my city, and was threated with
removal from the room ... (well, I did get a bit "hot", seems hot
enough to get a few others to take a verbal stance) Anyway, we
convinced "them" NOT to shorten library hours--at least.

It is time for investigative reporting, FBI/congressional investigations
and criminal proceedings against the guilty parties.

Instead, we are getting "bailouts" which reward the very crooks and
powers-which-be which are responsible for this fine mess! And, NOT one
word of closing the "loopholes." (DEFINITION: loophole = sanctioned
criminal activity!)

Regards,
JS

Art Unwin wrote:

...
John, some years back the Government aproved the removal of a
percentage of pensioin funds
for their own use as long as the pensions were not in jeopody. In
other words if the funds earned more money than expected
then the company could use that money. So the majority of pension
funds were kept at the prescibed minimum level.
Now pension funds have turned south and the businesses have also
turned south such that they cannot replace the funds removed.
This little pot has started to simmer but has yet to get to the
boiling point. As Yogi Bear said i9t aint over until it is over!
Everything was OK when we let the market decide but then greed changed
the metric of the market.
Art

YES! Indeed, it is much worse than that, the gov't has also used SSI
funds by "tossing them into "general funds",
questionable-investing-of-these-funds, etc." Now, they attempt to
"resell" us our SSI with increased taxes and "increased fees." (just
another name for "tax(s.)")

Ever notice how they end up taking library and other public service
funds, tossing 'em into a general fund, then reselling us the services,
again-and-again-and-again-... well, most DON'T seem to! I just brought
this up at a board of supes meeting in my city, and was threatened with
removal from the room ... (well, I did get a bit "hot", seems hot
enough to get a few others to take a verbal stance) Anyway, we
convinced "them" NOT to shorten library hours--at least.

It is time for investigative reporting, FBI/congressional investigations
and criminal proceedings against the guilty parties.

Instead, we are getting "bailouts" which reward the very crooks and
powers-which-be which are responsible for this fine mess! And, NOT one
word of closing the "loopholes." (DEFINITION: loophole = sanctioned
criminal activity!)

Regards,
JS

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Art Unwin wrote:

...
John, some years back the Government aproved the removal of a
percentage of pensioin funds
for their own use as long as the pensions were not in jeopody. In
other words if the funds earned more money than expected
then the company could use that money. So the majority of pension
funds were kept at the prescibed minimum level.
Now pension funds have turned south and the businesses have also
turned south such that they cannot replace the funds removed.
This little pot has started to simmer but has yet to get to the
boiling point. As Yogi Bear said i9t aint over until it is over!
Everything was OK when we let the market decide but then greed changed
the metric of the market.
Art

YES! Indeed, it is much worse than that, the gov't has also used SSI
funds by "tossing them into "general funds",
questionable-investing-of-these-funds, etc." Now, they attempt to
"resell" us our SSI with increased taxes and "increased fees." (just
another name for "tax(s.)")

Ever notice how they end up taking library and other public service
funds, tossing 'em into a general fund, then reselling us the services,
again-and-again-and-again-... well, most DON'T seem to! I just brought
this up at a board of supes meeting in my city, and was threatened with
removal from the room ... (well, I did get a bit "hot", seems hot
enough to get a few others to take a verbal stance) Anyway, we
convinced "them" NOT to shorten library hours--at least.

It is time for investigative reporting, FBI/congressional investigations
and criminal proceedings against the guilty parties.

Instead, we are getting "bailouts" which reward the very crooks and
powers-which-be which are responsible for this fine mess! And, NOT one
word of closing the "loopholes." (DEFINITION: loophole = sanctioned
criminal activity!)

Regards,
JS

It still all goes back to accountability. The majority of voters have
turned into children and allowed these things to flourish. The stupidest
people are the ones who sign petitions at grocery stores. No time to read
it or even evaluate the claims. Even the press that we all thought would be
a vanguard of freedom have turned into shills or are yes men (women) who say
it is OK to report on "what somebody said" even if it's a crock.

I have been to city council meetings too. Not long ago the idiots outvoted
the only sane one of em to "get in on" a abandon vehicle abatement tax of $1
on the vehicle license fees of which 50 cents would go back to the city.
When they found there were further requirements to get the money, they wound
up passing new ordinances to prohibit storage of vehicles in the driveway or
on your own property so that they could tow away enough vehicles for carbon
credits or some such nonsense. Since then I have vowed to vote no on any
legislation that isn't concise.

Another definition of loophole: The product of deceptive legislation that
through obfuscation, nullifies itself so that it may be perceived as "doing
good" while opponents are vilified.