Ed Cregger wrote:

I am beginning to suspect that traditionally made baluns are not as exact in
practice as they are theoretically. This is not a surprise, really. Few
things in electronics are exact as we humans like to assume, as you well
know.

Good seeing your post, OM.


Ed Cregger, N2ECW former NM2K

The whole problem is "liking to assume" that things are simpler than
they are. When the theory you apply is too simple, guess what -- you'll
find that the real thing doesn't behave as your oversimplified "theory"
predicts. Theory works just fine, and accurately predicts how a real
object will work. Oversimplified "theory" often doesn't work so well.

A well made balun or RF transformer behaves reasonably well like an
ideal transformer, that is, infinite winding inductance, no coupling
capacitance, zero leakage inductance, no loss, and so forth, but only
under quite a narrow range of circumstances. Those circumstances include
being terminated with a fairly narrow range of impedances and over a
limited frequency range. Usually, one side is designed to be terminated
with 50 ohms, purely resistive. That means the other side of a 4:1 balun
has to be terminated with something fairly close to 200 or 12.5 ohms
(depending on how it's designed), also resistive, in order for it to
work as intended. If the impedance differs very much at all from that
value, you'll find that the transformation ratio is no longer 4:1, and
that the balun will add a series and/or shunt impedance to the circuit.
This can be accounted for by theory, but only with great difficulty
since it requires careful characterization of the core and windings.
People tend to design, and often test, a 4:1 balun in a 50 ohm
environment, then attach it to a multiband antenna that has rather
extreme (but entirely predictable) impedance variations. Then they're
surprised because the impedance seen looking into the balun isn't 4
times or 1/4 times the antenna impedance, but is something wildly
different. They shouldn't be. A 4:1 balun or transformer that effects a
nice 4:1 impedance transformation when presented with a very wide range
of termination impedances simply doesn't exist. Any "theory" that
predicts it is oversimplified and invalid.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
treetonline...
Ed Cregger wrote:

I am beginning to suspect that traditionally made baluns are not as exact
in practice as they are theoretically. This is not a surprise, really.
Few things in electronics are exact as we humans like to assume, as you
well know.

Good seeing your post, OM.


Ed Cregger, N2ECW former NM2K

The whole problem is "liking to assume" that things are simpler than they
are. When the theory you apply is too simple, guess what -- you'll find
that the real thing doesn't behave as your oversimplified "theory"
predicts. Theory works just fine, and accurately predicts how a real
object will work. Oversimplified "theory" often doesn't work so well.

A well made balun or RF transformer behaves reasonably well like an ideal
transformer, that is, infinite winding inductance, no coupling
capacitance, zero leakage inductance, no loss, and so forth, but only
under quite a narrow range of circumstances. Those circumstances include
being terminated with a fairly narrow range of impedances and over a
limited frequency range. Usually, one side is designed to be terminated
with 50 ohms, purely resistive. That means the other side of a 4:1 balun
has to be terminated with something fairly close to 200 or 12.5 ohms
(depending on how it's designed), also resistive, in order for it to work
as intended. If the impedance differs very much at all from that value,
you'll find that the transformation ratio is no longer 4:1, and that the
balun will add a series and/or shunt impedance to the circuit. This can be
accounted for by theory, but only with great difficulty since it requires
careful characterization of the core and windings. People tend to design,
and often test, a 4:1 balun in a 50 ohm environment, then attach it to a
multiband antenna that has rather extreme (but entirely predictable)
impedance variations. Then they're surprised because the impedance seen
looking into the balun isn't 4 times or 1/4 times the antenna impedance,
but is something wildly different. They shouldn't be. A 4:1 balun or
transformer that effects a nice 4:1 impedance transformation when
presented with a very wide range of termination impedances simply doesn't
exist. Any "theory" that predicts it is oversimplified and invalid.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

------------

Roy, that is precisely what I said, but rather imprecisely.

Ed, N2ECW

Ed Cregger wrote:
Such things as variances in construction materials from one
batch to another and the variations that one human will introduce to
construction versus another human also induce characteristics that do not
always jibe with theory.

IMO, the major problem with baluns is that they are
designed for specific impedances and most often used
with unknown impedances.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Such things as variances in construction materials from one batch to
another and the variations that one human will introduce to construction
versus another human also induce characteristics that do not always jibe
with theory.

IMO, the major problem with baluns is that they are
designed for specific impedances and most often used
with unknown impedances.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

----------

Very true, but often times they work well enough with varying impedances to
get us on the air. If it is that or nothing, then I'm all for doing it.

Ed, N2ECW

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote:

I am beginning to suspect that traditionally made baluns are not as
exact in practice as they are theoretically. This is not a surprise,
really. Few things in electronics are exact as we humans like to
assume, as you well know.

Good seeing your post, OM.


Ed Cregger, N2ECW former NM2K

The whole problem is "liking to assume" that things are simpler than
they are. When the theory you apply is too simple, guess what -- you'll
find that the real thing doesn't behave as your oversimplified "theory"
predicts. Theory works just fine, and accurately predicts how a real
object will work. Oversimplified "theory" often doesn't work so well.

A well made balun or RF transformer behaves reasonably well like an
ideal transformer, that is, infinite winding inductance, no coupling
capacitance, zero leakage inductance, no loss, and so forth, but only
under quite a narrow range of circumstances. Those circumstances include
being terminated with a fairly narrow range of impedances and over a
limited frequency range. Usually, one side is designed to be terminated
with 50 ohms, purely resistive. That means the other side of a 4:1 balun
has to be terminated with something fairly close to 200 or 12.5 ohms
(depending on how it's designed), also resistive, in order for it to
work as intended. If the impedance differs very much at all from that
value, you'll find that the transformation ratio is no longer 4:1, and
that the balun will add a series and/or shunt impedance to the circuit.
This can be accounted for by theory, but only with great difficulty
since it requires careful characterization of the core and windings.
People tend to design, and often test, a 4:1 balun in a 50 ohm
environment, then attach it to a multiband antenna that has rather
extreme (but entirely predictable) impedance variations. Then they're
surprised because the impedance seen looking into the balun isn't 4
times or 1/4 times the antenna impedance, but is something wildly
different. They shouldn't be. A 4:1 balun or transformer that effects a
nice 4:1 impedance transformation when presented with a very wide range
of termination impedances simply doesn't exist. Any "theory" that
predicts it is oversimplified and invalid.


Thanks for the information!

Ed, good to run into you again! What brought
you to Georgia?

Ray - I found a Dover edition of Transmission
Lines, Antennas and Waveguides. Thank you for
the suggestion!

One final question about the 4:1 balun:
Assuming a single band Delta Loop with a feed
point impedance of approx 100 ohms, with or
without a 4:1 balun you have approximately a 2:1
SWR - so why use the balun?

Thanks and 73,

Tad Danley, K3TD

"Tad Danley" wrote

Ed, good to run into you again! What brought you to Georgia?

Thanks and 73,

Tad Danley, K3TD

----------

Dupont decided that they needed the wife in Chattanooga, TN. That was
slightly over ten years ago. We are living in the Northwest corner of
Georgia, just below Chattanooga, TN. It is a very, very nice place to live.

What the heck are you doing in Texas?

Ed, N2ECW

Ed Cregger wrote:
Very true, but often times they work well enough with varying impedances to
get us on the air. If it is that or nothing, then I'm all for doing it.

When I was in high school, a ham came back to my
"t-e-s-t-d-e-w-5-d-x-p" signal while my 40W Globe
Scout was driving a 100W light bulb through 3' of
wire on a table top. He gave me a 5x5 signal report.
No balun required. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Tad Danley wrote:
One final question about the 4:1 balun:
Assuming a single band Delta Loop with a feed point impedance of approx
100 ohms, with or without a 4:1 balun you have approximately a 2:1 SWR -
so why use the balun?

The resonant feedpoint impedance of a loop is often a
little higher than 100 ohms, e.g. 115 ohms according to
EZNEC, in which case a 4:1 balun will lower the SWR -
sometimes alleviating foldback problems.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote:
Very true, but often times they work well enough with varying
impedances to get us on the air. If it is that or nothing, then I'm
all for doing it.

When I was in high school, a ham came back to my
"t-e-s-t-d-e-w-5-d-x-p" signal while my 40W Globe
Scout was driving a 100W light bulb through 3' of
wire on a table top. He gave me a 5x5 signal report.
No balun required. :-)

http://palomar-engineers.com/1_1_Bal...alun_kits.html

http://palomar-engineers.com/4_1_Bal...alun_kits.html

Dave wrote:
http://palomar-engineers.com/1_1_Bal...alun_kits.html
http://palomar-engineers.com/4_1_Bal...alun_kits.html

Also https://www.amidoncorp.com/categories/12?page_number=2
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com