Old Ed wrote:
Are the model comparisons based on power applied to the antenna
feedpoint, independent of feedline and/or tuner losses?

Yes (However, for A-B comparisons, the dipole used a tuned feeder
and no tuner. The vertical was fed with RG-213 and no tuner.)

What height and ground conditions are you modeling for the dipole?

It's my typical East Texas ground at a height of 40 ft.

What radial structure are you assuming for the "typical 1/4WL
ground-mounted monopole?"

8 radials, modeled one foot above ground. A-B tests were done with
8 radials 20 ft above ground sloping down to 6 feet above ground.

What ground conditions are you assuming for the "typical 1/4WL
ground-mounted monopole?"

Typical East Texas ground, same as for the dipole

What is the best (read highest average gain) elevation angle for the
dipole under the assumed conditions?

9 dBi at 34 degrees, 8.5 dBi at 26 degrees, 0 dBi at 7 degrees

What is the best elevation angle (read highest average gain) for the
monopole under the assumed conditions?

-0.65 dBi at 34 degrees, 0 dBi at 26 degrees, -4.5 dBi at 7 degrees

At what elevation angle(s) are the modeled patterns being compared?

See above. The dipole beats the vertical by a couple of S-units in
the dipole's best direction. A-B tests were actually run on 40m.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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KC1DI wrote:
Just curious as to what most of you are using as an antenna on
the 30 Meter band?

Actually, my all time favorite antenna is a 40m loop closely coupled
for supergain. It has 20 dBi gain for 200 degrees of the horizontal.
It would make my 100 watt transceiver sound like about 10 kilowatts
and could be scaled for 30m but watch out for complaints that you are
running illegal power. The EZNEC file can be downloaded from my web
page below. (TIC disclaimer)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/SUPRGAIN.EZ



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Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
KC1DI wrote:
Just curious as to what most of you are using as an antenna on
the 30 Meter band?

Actually, my all time favorite antenna is a 40m loop closely coupled
for supergain. It has 20 dBi gain for 200 degrees of the horizontal.
It would make my 100 watt transceiver sound like about 10 kilowatts
and could be scaled for 30m but watch out for complaints that you are
running illegal power. The EZNEC file can be downloaded from my web
page below. (TIC disclaimer)

Have you ever actually tried one of those? I ran it thru expecting to
see a real low Z input, but was fairly high for a "supergain" type
scheme. I had to reduce the segment number to run in the demo...I got
26.3 dbi...??? I'm sort of skeptical that those actually live up to
the specs. Seems everyone would be using one...
20+ dbi is a pretty happy amount of gain for a simple loop like that.
Heck, a rhombic would have to be pretty big to do that well. Or takes
many elements for a yagi...Color me pretty skeptical til I see one in
action....:/ MK

Mark Keith wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
Actually, my all time favorite antenna is a 40m loop closely coupled
for supergain. It has 20 dBi gain for 200 degrees of the horizontal.
It would make my 100 watt transceiver sound like about 10 kilowatts
and could be scaled for 30m but watch out for complaints that you are
running illegal power. The EZNEC file can be downloaded from my web
page below. (TIC disclaimer)

Have you ever actually tried one of those?

Uhhhh Mark, "TIC" stands for Tongue-In-Cheek. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote:


Uhhhh Mark, "TIC" stands for Tongue-In-Cheek. :-)

If it ain't in plain langauge, I probably won't understand it...
I don't keep up with many of those...To me, a "tic" is kind of a
jerking motion usually in the facial area...:/ I knew that antenna had
to be a April fool's special of some kind... MK

Mark Keith wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Uhhhh Mark, "TIC" stands for Tongue-In-Cheek. :-)

If it ain't in plain langauge, I probably won't understand it...
I don't keep up with many of those...To me, a "tic" is kind of a
jerking motion usually in the facial area...:/ I knew that antenna had
to be a April fool's special of some kind... MK

A "TIC" is a "TLA" and is kind of a jerking motion usually in
the area of the leg (or funny bone).
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil,

OK, it was a TIC, I know that, but how does it 'fool' EZNEC?


"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Mark Keith wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
Actually, my all time favorite antenna is a 40m loop closely coupled
for supergain. It has 20 dBi gain for 200 degrees of the horizontal.
It would make my 100 watt transceiver sound like about 10 kilowatts
and could be scaled for 30m but watch out for complaints that you are
running illegal power. The EZNEC file can be downloaded from my web
page below. (TIC disclaimer)

Have you ever actually tried one of those?

Uhhhh Mark, "TIC" stands for Tongue-In-Cheek. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Jim Leder wrote:
Cecil, OK, it was a TIC, I know that, but how does it 'fool' EZNEC?

It violates the element spacing rules. Very close spacing is not allowed.
I forget the details and stumbled upon it by accident. But that antenna
is really, really a "gain" antenna, radiating a lot more than it's
feedpoint power. :-) I should have waited until April 1.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Have you ever actually tried one of those? (20 dBI gain for 200 degrees
of the horizontal, a loop closely coupled for supergain)"

Excellent question.

J.D. Kraus is the leading exponent of the "supergain antenna"(W8JK)
which he warns has a price in low feedpoint impedance, low efficiency,
and reduced bandwidth (higher Q).

Felow author F.E. Terman reiterates Kraus` caveats.

Kraus says the W8JK has a gain of 5.8 dBi. That is pretty good for two
1/2-wave elements and compares with a 3-element Yagi. When you replace
the straifgt elements in a Yagi with loops to make a "quagi" you may
gain about 2 dB. Design it for maximum gain, and you may pick up about 2
more dB. So, with a "supergain quagi" why wouldn`t you expect gain to be
limited tio about 10 dB.

The W8JK pattern is a figure-8 almost like a dipole but it gets 5-6 dBi
gain from reorientation of energy and that is 3-4 dB better than a
dipole. An array of two close-spaced quads will probably be sharper yet.
The W8JK pattern is shown in Fig 71 on page 8-50 of the 19th edition of
the ARRL Antenna Book. It seems to have about 100-degrees of beamwidth
in forward and reverse directions, so that may qualify as 200-degrees.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard Harrison wrote:

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Have you ever actually tried one of those? (20 dBI gain for 200 degrees
of the horizontal, a loop closely coupled for supergain)"

Excellent question.

Richard, my posting was a tongue-in-cheek joke.
That antenna has an efficiency far in excess of 100%.
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP