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Jim Kelley wrote:
But you're doing all the talking, Cecil - providing profound and
knowledgeable insights as in the above observation that phase shift and
delay are unrelated.

I guess I should provide a context for the uninitiated.

If the system contains only traveling waves, the delay
is proportional to the phase shift. If the system contains
only standing waves, the delay is completely unrelated to
the phase shift since the phase shift is always zero over
any 1/2WL between the current nodes. EZNEC supports that
fact and w7el has admitted such in a previous posting.

Kraus and Balanis both agree with the above assertion. I
believe that you are aware of that fact so I have no choice
but to assume that you are deliberately trying to hoodwink
the uninitiated as are w7el and w8ji. Your ulterior motives
remain unclear to me since you will not doubt be proven
technically wrong at some point. You guys cannot possibly
plead ignorance after all these years of discussion.

Traveling wave current changes phase relative to the source
current. Every technical person agrees on that fact of physics.

Standing wave current does not change phase relative to
the source current. Everyone technical person agrees on
that fact of physics.

Therefore, standing wave current phase cannot be used to
measure delay through a wire or through a coil. This is
such a simple concept that any disagreement must be
considered to be a conspiracy to hoodwink the uninitiated.
Exactly what do you guys have to gain from hoodwinking
the unwashed masses???
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Apr 14, 1:09*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
On Apr 14, 3:29 pm, Jim Kelley wrote:
Do you want him to tell you what he believes it is, or what he has
actually measured it to be?
I would like to hear anyones opinion on it. Jimmie

Does anyone besides me suspect that JIMMIE talking
to Jim is the same person?
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

The voices say aye.

ac6xg

Cecil Moore wrote:

If the system contains only traveling waves, the delay
is proportional to the phase shift. If the system contains
only standing waves, the delay is completely unrelated to
the phase shift since the phase shift is always zero over
any 1/2WL between the current nodes. EZNEC supports that
fact and w7el has admitted such in a previous posting.

Kraus and Balanis both agree with the above assertion.

I'm surprised they ever used EZNEC, or discussed systems that have
standing waves, and nothing else.

Standing wave current does not change phase relative to
the source current. Everyone technical person agrees on
that fact of physics.

Yes, and that's by virtue of the fact that standing waves are entirely
dependent on traveling waves. In fact, standing waves don't do anything
on their own.

What's amazing is that you continue to insist on attributing
interference with supernatural powers - "redistribution"
being one, "delaying" itself apparently being another.

Therefore, standing wave current phase cannot be used to
measure delay through a wire or through a coil.

We've seen how you can calculate it. So, given that phase and delay are
completely unrelated as you have explained, please describe if you would
how one would go about actually measuring standing wave current delay -
whatever that is.

This is
such a simple concept that any disagreement must be
considered to be a conspiracy to hoodwink the uninitiated.
Exactly what do you guys have to gain from hoodwinking
the unwashed masses???

The suggestion sounds a little nutty to me, to be honest. Is it
possible that you might be mistaken about any of this?

ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:
I'm surprised they ever ... discussed systems that have
standing waves, and nothing else.

I'm not surprised because you have obviously never cracked
open their books - tsk, tsk. Reference page 288 of "Optics",
by Hecht, 4th edition, 7.1.4 Standing Waves.

What's amazing is that you continue to insist on attributing
interference with supernatural powers - "redistribution"
being one, ...

Obviously, you have never read the following FSU web page:

micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/interference/waveinteractions/index.html

"... when two waves of equal amplitude and wavelength that are
180-degrees ... out of phase with each other meet, they are not
actually annihilated, ... All of the photon energy present in
these waves must somehow be recovered or *redistributed* in a
new direction, according to the law of energy conservation ...
Instead, upon meeting, the photons are *redistributed* to regions
that permit constructive interference, so the effect should be
considered as a *redistribution* of light waves and photon energy
rather than the spontaneous construction or destruction of light."

Exactly what is it about the *redistribution* of energy that you
don't understand?

... please describe if you would
how one would go about actually measuring standing wave current delay -
whatever that is.

I cannot improve on Hecht's words in "Optics":

"This is the equation for a STANDING or STATIONARY WAVE, as
opposed to a traveling wave. Its profile does not move through
space; ... It doesn't rotate at all, and the resultant wave
it represents doesn't progress through space - its a standing
wave."

In other words, "standing wave current delay" does not exist.
Only an ignorant fool would think that it could exist given
the equation for a standing wave. Yet this is the current
that w7el and w8ji tried to use to measure the delay through
a 75m mobile loading coil.

The suggestion sounds a little nutty to me, to be honest. Is it
possible that you might be mistaken about any of this?

I could be mistaken about your ulterior motive but it is hard
for me to accept the fact that you guys are just dumb as a stump.
I would rather think that you, w7el, and w8ji have a modicum
of intelligence and are merely engaged in a conspiracy to
hoodwink the uninitiated. Your motive for such is unclear.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:35:00 -0500, Cecil Moore
engaged in a conspiracy

Hmm, Trilateral commission?
Freemasonry?
Area 51?
Symbionese Liberation Army?
Hussein's "Oil for Food?"
Illuminati?
Ulster Loyalist Central Coordination Committee?
Bilderberg Group?
the 4th Reich?
AUM Shinrikyo?
Animal Liberation Front?
Leon Czolgosz?
Gulf of Tonkin incident?
Hollow earth theory?
New World Order?
Rosicrucians?
Servants of the Paraclete?
Watergate?
The Nazi-American Money Plot?
There is a point in a loading coil antenna where the phase shift is
instantaneous? [and yet it moves.....]

Richard Clark wrote:
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:35:00 -0500, Cecil Moore
engaged in a conspiracy

Hmm, Trilateral commission?

It was tongue-in-cheek humor, Richard.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Apr 14, 8:16*pm, Jim Kelley wrote:
On Apr 14, 1:09*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:
On Apr 14, 3:29 pm, Jim Kelley wrote:
Do you want him to tell you what he believes it is, or what he has
actually measured it to be?
I would like to hear anyones opinion on it. Jimmie

Does anyone besides me suspect that JIMMIE talking
to Jim is the same person?
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

The voices say aye.

ac6xg

The voices are wrong, it doesnt take a lot of digging to find out who
I am if you really want to know, Ive been here for years. I just dont
like my identity plastered on newsgroups.

Jimmie

On Apr 14, 5:35*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

I cannot improve on Hecht's words in "Optics":

You could still improve on your understanding of their meaning.

In other words, "standing wave current delay" does not exist.
Only an ignorant fool would think that it could exist given
the equation for a standing wave.

And yet you keep posting your calculations and claiming to have made
measurements. I was trying to be polite, but yes. Evidently we're in
agreement now?

ac6xg

On Apr 15, 7:35*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Apr 14, 8:16*pm, Jim Kelley wrote:

On Apr 14, 1:09*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:
On Apr 14, 3:29 pm, Jim Kelley wrote:
Do you want him to tell you what he believes it is, or what he has
actually measured it to be?
I would like to hear anyones opinion on it. Jimmie

Does anyone besides me suspect that JIMMIE talking
to Jim is the same person?
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

The voices say aye.

ac6xg

The voices are wrong, it doesnt take a lot of digging to find out who
I am if you really want to know, Ive been here for years.

Yes, but don't you see? That's the clever deception. You could have
appended three letters to your first name and typed it in all caps,
and then only somebody as smart as Cecil could figure out that you are
actually me. Not even we would know it. :-)

73, ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:
And yet you keep posting your calculations and claiming to have made
measurements.

As have w7el and w8ji. All their measurements proved
is that standing wave current doesn't change phase
relative to the feedpoint current phase. They did
not measure the delay through a coil. They measured
the phase shift through the coil using a current that
doesn't change phase relative to the two measurement
points. The same thing happens with a wire.

To measure the actual delay through a coil, traveling
wave current must be used. I am apparently the only
one who ran that actual experiment. I guarantee if
anyone performs that experiment in a valid manner,
they will see similar results to mine. Here's the
setup that I used to measure a ~25 nS delay through
a 75m bugcatcher coil at 4 MHz.

http://www.w5dxp.com/coiltest.GIF

You should be able to achieve that setup in your
physics lab.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com