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"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
John KD5YI wrote:
Wake up, Cecil. The 6.75 inch long Texas Bugcatcher coil falls into the
lumped component category (being only .002WL at 75m).

Sorry John, we are not talking about *physical* length
- we are talking about *electrical* length which, like
a piece of coax, depends upon the velocity factor. The
velocity factor for a Texas Bugcatcher coil is ~0.02.


I think any inductor with the same inductance, Q, and self-resonant
frequency will give the same velocity factor and delay as your Bugcatcher. I
don't think that neither the coil nor the "stinger" knows how the inductor
is constructed. I think the slight difference due to radiation from the
Bugcatcher can be ignored since it is small physically.

I think you will measure the same velocity factor with any other coil that
gives the same inductance, Q, and self-resonant frequency regardless of
whether it is wound on air, a toroid core, a ferrite rod, or a beer can. If
so, then that coil will be a distributed component according to you because
it meets the electrical requirements.

John

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John KD5YI wrote:
I think any inductor with the same inductance, Q, and self-resonant
frequency will give the same velocity factor and delay as your
Bugcatcher.

That may or may not be true - I don't have an
opinion one way or another - and it is NOT part
of my argument. My argument deals only with
75m Texas Bugcatcher coils and other large air-
core loading coils used on 75m.

My argument is that the velocity factor of a 75m
Texas Bugcatcher coil is ~0.02, occupies ~41
electrical degrees on 4 MHz, and exhibits a
delay of ~28 nS through the coil. That is my only
argument. I am not interested in diversions from
that argument.

My argument also includes the 100 turn, 10 inch long,
2 inch diameter coil that w8ji used for his 3 nS delay
"measurements". If he had used traveling wave current
for the measurement, he would have measured approximately
25 nS.

Maxwell's equations for slow-wave structures (like
a 75m Texas Bugcatcher loading coil) are given in
"Fields and Waves ...", by Ramo and Whinnery:
pages 467-479 in the 2nd edition. This is one of
the references in the Corum IEEE paper.

What do you make of Roy's (w7el) statement at:

http://www.w8ji.com/agreeing_measurements.htm

"As described in my posting on rraa of November 11,
the inductor 'replaces' about 33 electrical degrees
of the antenna."
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

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"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On May 5, 5:33 pm, "Dave" wrote:
Because the magnetic field produced launches the particle which
travels at the speed of light by impact. This is the basic metric of
time. A particle emits light when it's momentum changes. Particles
carry just one color which is a measure of its frequency. There are
only three colors available but together they form the basics of all
colours. Colors emitted can be seen in the Northern lights as the
momentum changes of particles entering the Earth's medium where they
come to rest as unbound electrons on diamagnetic surfaces.
Hawkins is in hospital at the moment so you can't chat with him

only 3 colors eh? if the particles can only carry one of 3 frequencies how
do they generate 160m frequencies? 80m frequencies?? the whole range of
hf, vhf, uhf, mf, lf, etc, etc, etc... the whole spectrum of electromagnetic
waves can't come from just 3 basic frequencies.

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On May 6, 5:54*pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...
On May 5, 5:33 pm, "Dave" wrote:

Because the magnetic field produced launches the particle which
travels at the speed of light by impact. This is the basic metric of
time. A particle emits light when it's momentum changes. Particles
carry just one color which is a measure of its frequency. There are
only three colors available but together they form the basics of all
colours. Colors emitted can be seen in the Northern lights as the
momentum changes of particles entering the *Earth's medium *where they
come to rest as unbound electrons on diamagnetic surfaces.
Hawkins is in hospital at the moment so you can't chat with him

only 3 colors eh? if the particles can only carry one of 3 frequencies how
do they generate 160m frequencies? *80m frequencies?? *the whole range of
hf, vhf, uhf, mf, lf, etc, etc, etc... the whole spectrum of electromagnetic
waves can't come from just 3 basic frequencies.

I don't know about waves but my understanding is that all colors come
from the mixing
of the three basic colors, or is it four? When you mix frequencies I
would imagine you could arrive at all possible frequencies. I think
you should drop the idea of waves with respect to frequency. If you
observe a rainbow how many basic colors are there in the mix! In a
projector isn't there just three filters required for a movie in
color? One thing you have to get into your mind is the idea of basic
temperature and mass without energy. the case prior to the big bang.
The temperature aspect is very important input
of the inpact of energy at the initial stage where decelleration of a
particle in a changing medium generates a change in temperature which
is also synonimous with particle temperature. You are for ever
compartmentizing every thing as if there are no connections to be had
as per G.U.T. or more to the point static versus dynamic fields.
You are way to quick to say that you can't and should listen to OBAMA
who states yes we can.

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Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
How well does your answer compare with the curves in Fig. 1 given the
number of turns in a Bugcatcher coil?

Since the curves are generated from the equation,
they should match perfectly. As a matter of fact,
I have a dot on that graph at 0.004 and 5k. The
VF is ~0.02.

Presumably there is a lower limit to the number of turns the coil would
have to have, or an upper limit to the pitch angle, in order to behave
as described - a helical sheath. Tesla coils usually have at least a
few hundred turns wound closely together, and often operate at
wavelengths considerably longer that 75 meters. One could easily argue
that 30 turns do not a Tesla coil make, in which case Eq. 32 would not
apply.

ac6xg

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Art Unwin wrote:
I don't know about waves but my understanding is that all colors come
from the mixing of the three basic colors, or is it four?

That's the RGB standard designed for fooling human
eyes into seeing more than just red, green, and blue.
Photons in nature come in *all* EM frequencies.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

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"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
John KD5YI wrote:
I think any inductor with the same inductance, Q, and self-resonant
frequency will give the same velocity factor and delay as your
Bugcatcher.

That may or may not be true - I don't have an
opinion one way or another - and it is NOT part
of my argument. My argument deals only with
75m Texas Bugcatcher coils and other large air-
core loading coils used on 75m.

If it IS true, then the point I tried to make that you are making a
distributed component from a lumped one is valid. That's what caused me to
object to your earlier post.

And, by the way, I feel the same way you do except about people who are
afraid to consider lumped components. Perhaps they do not have what it takes
to judge when a proper substitution can be made.

John

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Art Unwin wrote:
I don't know about waves but my understanding is that all colors come
from the mixing of the three basic colors, or is it four?

Your understanding is in error... at least, if you're referring to
colors in terms of actual photon behavior (energy and wavelength)
rather than to the human *perception* of color.

That's the RGB standard designed for fooling human
eyes into seeing more than just red, green, and blue.

Yup. And, the red/green/blue system is an artifact of the human
visual system... most of us happen to have three different types
of photo-sensitive molecules in the cone cells in our eyes, and these
three types of molecules have their peak receptivities at the
frequencies that we refer to as "red", "green", and "blue."

There seems to be some amount of genetic variation, among humans, in
the exact frequencies at which the peak sensitivies lie. And, some
people have are missing one or more of these types of photoreceptor,
and are referred to as "colorblind".

There are apparently some humans who have four different types of
photopigment, and thus may have an improved ability to perceive
distinctions between colors. Certain species of animal are known to
have four photopigments (one for e.g. UV sensitivity) and I wouldn't
be surprised if some species have five or more variants.

Photons in nature come in *all* EM frequencies.

Yup again. It's an interesting process:

- Light comes in a continuous range of frequencies.

- Our eyes "sample" this continous range, with three types of sensor
having different-but-overlapping sensitivities. Each sensor
generates a variable amplitude (or pulse train) based on the
intensity that it's detecting, within its sensitivity range.

- Our nervous system maps the three amplitudes back into a perception
of a continuous range of colors.

The process is far from perfect... information is lost during the
sampling process, and thus the perception of a continuous spectrum is
necessarily flawed and imperfect.

This is why a mixture of two different pure colors (e.g. red and
green) can look like a single pure color to our eyes (e.g. yellow or
amber)... it happens to excite the red and green photosensors in the
same proportion that a single, pure-yellow light would. Mixed
together, the colors look like one... split them apart with a prism
and you can easily distinguish them and see the trick.

[Almost] All Is Illusion.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

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On May 6, 7:05*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
I don't know about waves but my understanding is that all colors come
from the mixing of the three basic colors, or is it four?

That's the RGB standard designed for fooling human
eyes into seeing more than just red, green, and blue.
Photons in nature come in *all* EM frequencies.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil
Seems like this thing called photon is the magic article that created
the big bang.
You attribute everything to the photon but I don't think physics as
got a proper handle on it! Heck, only a few years ago they said a
particle could exist without mass.If a particle emitted from the Sun's
boundary( lepton?) deaccellerated in a particular medium
and broke apart into many electrons, then would not heat or light be
emitted as kinetic energy contained in the particles of different
sizes representing the spectrum
of a particular color with respect to potential energy contained in
the various sized particles? Does your photon come in different sizes,
color and potential energy?
My understanding is that there are about seven leptons that break away
from the Sun's boundary, three of which contains color attributes
along with other flavours which is indicative of temperature and
change in momentum.
I think it is to early to argue about such a subject.

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Cecil Moore wrote:
John KD5YI wrote:
I think any inductor with the same inductance, Q, and self-resonant
frequency will give the same velocity factor and delay as your
Bugcatcher.

That may or may not be true - I don't have an
opinion one way or another - and it is NOT part
of my argument. My argument deals only with
75m Texas Bugcatcher coils and other large air-
core loading coils used on 75m.

My argument is that the velocity factor of a 75m
Texas Bugcatcher coil is ~0.02, occupies ~41
electrical degrees on 4 MHz, and exhibits a
delay of ~28 nS through the coil. That is my only
argument. I am not interested in diversions from
that argument.

Meaning you don't want anyone to disagree with you.



My argument also includes the 100 turn, 10 inch long,
2 inch diameter coil that w8ji used for his 3 nS delay
"measurements". If he had used traveling wave current
for the measurement, he would have measured approximately
25 nS.

No he wouldn't. You don't know what he would have measured.
You don't know how to measure it yourself because you don't have
any idea of what's going on, theoretically.



Maxwell's equations for slow-wave structures (like
a 75m Texas Bugcatcher loading coil) are given in
"Fields and Waves ...", by Ramo and Whinnery:
pages 467-479 in the 2nd edition. This is one of
the references in the Corum IEEE paper.

Maxwell's equations don't say anything about "slow-wave
structures." If they did, you couldn't understand the vector
calculus involved, anyway. This is more picking and choosing
from authorities.



What do you make of Roy's (w7el) statement at:

http://www.w8ji.com/agreeing_measurements.htm

"As described in my posting on rraa of November 11,
the inductor 'replaces' about 33 electrical degrees
of the antenna."

Are you sure that isn't a quote from Reg Edwards, whose ideas
you stole in the first place? Reg thought that antennas were
transmission lines. There's nothing wrong with that. Reg even
worked out some practical formulas based on his ideas that seemed
to work well enough for who they were for. What he didn't do was
discover any laws of nature, any more than you have.

73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH