Frequency doubling
 

It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

Frequency doubling
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed to
create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that any
doubling effect is too small to see.

Frequency doubling
 

On May 8, 4:51*am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to
occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Jimmie

Frequency doubling
 

In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely
because that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the
energies needed to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough
to linear that any doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

Brian GM4DIJ

--
Brian Howie

Frequency doubling
 

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed
to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that any
doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

My knowledge on radio waves starts and ends on the description of the Hertz
experiment. So my questions apply to the half wave dipoles.
In the acoustic analogy the Hertz emitter (dipole with the two big balls on
its ends) works like the two monopoles halve wave apart (of course not in
phase). In a few meters from it the Hertz receiver (ring with the two small
balls) works only if parallel. When the receiver is parallel with the
emitter the spherical wave from the upper ball push the electron to lower
halve of the
receiwer and the small spark jump. The frequency is the same
In other orientations the electron in the ring are also moved but the
voltage is equal and no sparks.

But at long distances on every piece of metal acts the two alternating
electric field from the two monopoles. The frequency must be doubled.
Are now antennas similar to Hertz dipole?
Is the frequency doubled.
S*

Frequency doubling
 

"JIMMIE" wrote
...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to
occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each doubling.
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

Frequency doubling
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed
to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that
any doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

My knowledge on radio waves starts and ends on the description of the
Hertz experiment. So my questions apply to the half wave dipoles.
In the acoustic analogy the Hertz emitter (dipole with the two big balls
on its ends) works like the two monopoles halve wave apart (of course not
in phase). In a few meters from it the Hertz receiver (ring with the two
small balls) works only if parallel. When the receiver is parallel with
the emitter the spherical wave from the upper ball push the electron to
lower halve of the
receiwer and the small spark jump. The frequency is the same
In other orientations the electron in the ring are also moved but the
voltage is equal and no sparks.

But at long distances on every piece of metal acts the two alternating
electric field from the two monopoles. The frequency must be doubled.
Are now antennas similar to Hertz dipole?
Is the frequency doubled.
S*

no, your concept is incorrect. the dipole is the whole antenna it is not
limited to sources at the ends. even if you do set up a condition with 2
monopoles, like my 160m inverted V array with 2 verticals 1/2 wave apart,
the interference does not change the frequency, it changes the intensity.
As someone else pointed out, this is because EM waves are transverse waves
and the fields add linearly in normal conditions, it takes a non-linear
medium to cause mixing.

Frequency doubling
 

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies
needed to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear
that any doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

My knowledge on radio waves starts and ends on the description of the
Hertz experiment. So my questions apply to the half wave dipoles.
In the acoustic analogy the Hertz emitter (dipole with the two big balls
on its ends) works like the two monopoles halve wave apart (of course not
in phase). In a few meters from it the Hertz receiver (ring with the two
small balls) works only if parallel. When the receiver is parallel with
the emitter the spherical wave from the upper ball push the electron to
lower halve of the
receiwer and the small spark jump. The frequency is the same
In other orientations the electron in the ring are also moved but the
voltage is equal and no sparks.

But at long distances on every piece of metal acts the two alternating
electric field from the two monopoles. The frequency must be doubled.
Are now antennas similar to Hertz dipole?
Is the frequency doubled.
S*

no, your concept is incorrect. the dipole is the whole antenna it is not
limited to sources at the ends. even if you do set up a condition with 2
monopoles, like my 160m inverted V array with 2 verticals 1/2 wave apart,
the interference does not change the frequency,

Does not change in medium. But I am talking about the electrons in metal
kicked by impulses from the TWO sources in opposite phase. The electron do
not know which kick them.


it changes the intensity.
As someone else pointed out, this is because EM waves are transverse waves
and the fields add linearly in normal conditions, it takes a non-linear
medium to cause mixing.

In EM a dipole radiate the ONE EM spherical wave. It is a math.
In reality a dipole is like a machine to produce the two monopoles which
radiate the TWO electric spherical waves.
S*

Frequency doubling
 

On May 9, 3:24*am, Szczepan Biaùek wrote:
*"JIMMIE" ...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to

occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to *both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily *for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. *The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each doubling..
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

The presence of a non linear medium is always required for frequency
doubling. The only part of the atmoshere that I know of that meets the
qualification is the ionosphere which contains plasma which could act
as a nonlinear medium. I suppose that if the signal were powerful
enough to produce ionization that a frequency could be doubled..

Jimmie

Frequency doubling
 

On May 10, 6:58*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On May 9, 3:24*am, Szczepan Biaùek wrote:



*"JIMMIE" ...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to

occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to *both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily *for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. *The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each doubling.
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

The presence of a non linear medium is always required for frequency
doubling. The only part of the atmoshere that I know of that meets the
qualification is the ionosphere which contains plasma which could act
as a nonlinear medium. I suppose that if the signal were powerful
enough to produce ionization that a frequency could be doubled..

Jimmie

Hi,
Let me help you with your problem.
You mentioned a cycle which you know is equal to a period or
occillation of a radio wave. Let us say that an antenna charges up and
then radiates ie half the time or occillation for each action. Now you
have decided to apply power to a half wave antenna asnd not a full
wave antenna that is occupied in some action all of the time period.
Now you have to decide what your half wave antenna is going to do.
Charge up only and let the power leak away or radiate without having
any power!
What you have to do is to imagine a radiator as a tank circuit where
you have two energy storage areas, a inductor and a capacitor and for
the mom ent free from losses.
Thus the energy loads up the inductor which then empties into the
capacitor which in turn empties back into the inductor e.t.c Thus only
one charge is supplied and no more since the same charge is really not
being let go!
This is seen as perpetual motion which is an impossibility. Thus if
energy is going to be used it will only be expended for half a cycle
and then the circuit recharges for the next cycle. Now you should be
able to see that a half wave antenna is only capable of working half
the time so in no way can you be applying a doubling of frequency
motion when you only have a half wave antenna to work with. So S* go
back to your study but first replace your half wave antenna and re
think things out with a full wave antenna in loop form with a tank
circuit in mind and when you have all things in place
substitute your half wave antenna and determine what this does to you
tank circuit and radiation.

Frequency doubling
 

"Art Unwin" wrote
...
On May 10, 6:58 am, JIMMIE wrote:
On May 9, 3:24 am, Szczepan Biaùek wrote:



"JIMMIE"
...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to

occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each
doubling.
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

The presence of a non linear medium is always required for frequency
doubling. The only part of the atmoshere that I know of that meets the
qualification is the ionosphere which contains plasma which could act
as a nonlinear medium. I suppose that if the signal were powerful
enough to produce ionization that a frequency could be doubled..

Jimmie

Hi,
Let me help you with your problem.
You mentioned a cycle which you know is equal to a period or
occillation of a radio wave. Let us say that an antenna charges up and
then radiates ie half the time or occillation for each action. Now you
have decided to apply power to a half wave antenna asnd not a full
wave antenna that is occupied in some action all of the time period.
Now you have to decide what your half wave antenna is going to do.
Charge up only and let the power leak away or radiate without having
any power!
What you have to do is to imagine a radiator as a tank circuit where
you have two energy storage areas, a inductor and a capacitor and for
the mom ent free from losses.
Thus the energy loads up the inductor which then empties into the
capacitor which in turn empties back into the inductor e.t.c Thus only
one charge is supplied and no more since the same charge is really not
being let go!
This is seen as perpetual motion which is an impossibility. Thus if
energy is going to be used it will only be expended for half a cycle
and then the circuit recharges for the next cycle. Now you should be
able to see that a half wave antenna is only capable of working half
the time so in no way can you be applying a doubling of frequency
motion when you only have a half wave antenna to work with. So S* go
back to your study but first replace your half wave antenna and re
think things out with a full wave antenna in loop form with a tank
circuit in mind and when you have all things in place
substitute your half wave antenna and determine what this does to you
tank circuit and radiation.

Our problem apply to the original Hertz experiment. See:
http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jone...Hertz_exp.html

There is: "According to theory, if electromagnetic waves were spreading from
the oscillator sparks, they would induce a current in the loop that would
send sparks across the gap"

In EM waves are produced by the current (oscllator sparks in the Hertz
apparatus). One cycle is completed when the current flow to and fro.

But there is possible the other theory. Electric waves are spreading from
the ends (plates or big balls in Hertz apparatus). Now we know that
electrons have mass and are compressible. So at the ends appear and
disappear the huge charges. In that case an electric impulse is send when
the current flows to (from one end) , and the next when the current flows
fro (from the other end). So in one EM cycle are the two electric cycles.
So the frequency is not doubled. The electric is twice more.

It seems that at long distances receiving antennas should work better at the
electric frequencies.
BTW, what exactly means "Luxembourg effect" (Brian wrote: " e.g Luxembourg
Effect; so
doubling is possible.")?
S*

Frequency doubling
 

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
Now you have to decide what your half wave antenna is going to do.
Charge up only and let the power leak away or radiate without having
any power!

A 1/2WL dipole is a standing-wave antenna. Believe it
or not, ~80% of the steady-state energy on a 1/2WL dipole
is not radiated, i.e. as far as total energy is concerned,
radiation is a secondary effect. Energy is traveling in both
directions at the same time on a standing-wave antenna. At
the tip of the antenna, the two energy flows are equal. At
the feedpoint, the reflected wave is only ~20% down in
energy level from the forward wave - the reflected voltage
and current are only ~10% down from the forward voltage and
current. The feedpoint impedance of a 1/2WL dipole is the
result of superposition of the forward and reflected waves.
The Z0 of a 1/2WL dipole using #14 wire at a height of 30
feet is very close to 600 ohms.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

Frequency doubling
 

On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:35:41 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

doubling is possible.")?

No.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

On May 8, 4:51*am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

Your reference seems to explain what you are asking very well.
Distance is not mentioned as a factor.

JImmie

Frequency doubling
 

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

no distance required, and no antenna required, just put the signal through a
diode or other non-linear element and you will get some component at double
the frequency.

Frequency doubling
 

"JIMMIE" wrote
...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

Your reference seems to explain what you are asking very well.
Distance is not mentioned as a factor.

I have found the next:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=QSke...P RA1-PA53,M1

There on the page 53 you can find that the medium-wave were disturbed by the
long-vave (halve-way between).
S*



JImmie

Frequency doubling
 

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed
to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that any
doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

You are right.


I have found this:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=QSke...P RA1-PA53,M1

There on the page 53 you can find that the medium-wave were disturbed by the
long-vave (halve-way between).
S*

Frequency doubling
 

"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:35:41 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

doubling is possible.")?

No.

Here is wrote that it happend:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=QSke...P RA1-PA53,M1

There on the page 53 you can find that the medium-wave were disturbed by the
long-vave (halve-way between).
S*

Frequency doubling
 

On Thu, 14 May 2009 21:16:06 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

Here is wrote that it happend:

Trash is what this reference is called. Someone's diary is not
science.

If it were not trash, it does not prove doubling. Did you actually
read it? It doesn't prove IMD either as there would be a billion
reports every day from the presence of the MegaWatt LW stations in
Europe. I don't suppose you listen to radio either?

MythBusted = Trash and False.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Thu, 14 May 2009 21:16:06 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

Here is wrote that it happend:

Trash is what this reference is called. Someone's diary is not
science.

If it were not trash, it does not prove doubling. Did you actually
read it? It doesn't prove IMD either as there would be a billion
reports every day from the presence of the MegaWatt LW stations in
Europe. I don't suppose you listen to radio either?

Not all MegaWatt LW stations are the Hertz dipole. Such was in Warsow but
collapsed.
If station has only one end no doubling. Even if it has two the lower must
have the same possibilities (tip top of mountain).

But the main issue is not doubling. Are you sure that magnetic whirl exist
around a wire?
S*

Frequency doubling
 

On Fri, 15 May 2009 09:08:06 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:
Here is wrote that it happend:

Trash is what this reference is called. Someone's diary is not
science.

If it were not trash, it does not prove doubling. Did you actually
read it? It doesn't prove IMD either as there would be a billion
reports every day from the presence of the MegaWatt LW stations in
Europe. I don't suppose you listen to radio either?

Not all MegaWatt LW stations are the Hertz dipole. Such was in Warsow but
collapsed.

This is a ridiculous observation. However, if I were to allow it, it
thus also means that SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole,"
by your own admission (which is significantly in question as to be
authoritative because you don't really know, do you?).

If station has only one end no doubling. Even if it has two the lower must
have the same possibilities (tip top of mountain).

As SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole," it follows there
must be literally billions of examples of what you describe. And yet
you offer no personal experience, and the record is empty of others'
observations.

MythBusted = Trash and False.


But the main issue is not doubling.

Funny you would say that in a thread whose topic was your deliberate
choice.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Fri, 15 May 2009 09:08:06 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:
Here is wrote that it happend:

Trash is what this reference is called. Someone's diary is not
science.

If it were not trash, it does not prove doubling. Did you actually
read it? It doesn't prove IMD either as there would be a billion
reports every day from the presence of the MegaWatt LW stations in
Europe. I don't suppose you listen to radio either?

Not all MegaWatt LW stations are the Hertz dipole. Such was in Warsow but
collapsed.

This is a ridiculous observation. However, if I were to allow it, it
thus also means that SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole,"
by your own admission (which is significantly in question as to be
authoritative because you don't really know, do you?).

If station has only one end no doubling. Even if it has two the lower must
have the same possibilities (tip top of mountain).

As SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole," it follows there
must be literally billions of examples of what you describe. And yet
you offer no personal experience, and the record is empty of others'
observations.

The others' obserwations were made in 1933 and a few next. Engineers are so
clever people that they very quickly found a remedy.

MythBusted = Trash and False.


But the main issue is not doubling.

Funny you would say that in a thread whose topic was your deliberate
choice.

Is the two: doubling and polarisation.
1. ""Over long distances, the atmosphere can cause the
polarization of a radio wave to fluctuate, so the distinction between
horizontal and vertical becomes less significant." From:
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...843762,00.html

2. It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.

The common is "wave propagation"or more precise "are Radio Waves transverse
or longitudinal"?
What is your opinion?
S*

Frequency doubling
 

On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:23:44 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

As SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole," it follows there
must be literally billions of examples of what you describe. And yet
you offer no personal experience, and the record is empty of others'
observations.

The others' obserwations were made in 1933

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm? So why do you post here?

MythBusted = Trash and False.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:23:44 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

As SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole," it follows there
must be literally billions of examples of what you describe. And yet
you offer no personal experience, and the record is empty of others'
observations.

The others' obserwations were made in 1933

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm?

I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday. No
possibility for doubling. All bands are arranged in such way that no
possibility.

So why do you post here?

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.
The harvest is huge in your Group.
S*


MythBusted = Trash and False.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:23:44 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

As SOME MegaWatt LW stations are "the Hertz dipole," it follows there
must be literally billions of examples of what you describe. And yet
you offer no personal experience, and the record is empty of others'
observations.

The others' obserwations were made in 1933

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm?

I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday. No
possibility for doubling. All bands are arranged in such way that no
possibility.

but amateur bands were initially assigned so that harmonics ended up in the
next higher band... but because transmitters generated harmonics because of
their design, not because the antennas or ionosphere created them.



So why do you post here?

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.
The harvest is huge in your Group.
S*

then you REALLY need to talk to art, his waves are caused by magical
levitating diamagnetic neutrinos jumping off the antenna when the current
flows in, that would fit nicely with your misguided theory.



MythBusted = Trash and False.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:00:56 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm?

I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday.

And you didn't even turn it on. Now THAT is lazy.

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.

You are not actually "doing" anything at all.

So why do you post here?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday. No
possibility for doubling. All bands are arranged in such way that no
possibility.

but amateur bands were initially assigned so that harmonics ended up in
the next higher band... but because transmitters generated harmonics
because of their design, not because the antennas or ionosphere created
them.

Discussion with Wim: "In case of non-linear parts in a system (for example
a corroded
connector in an antenna cable that is used by two or more
transmitters, that may behave as a semiconductor), you might get so
called mixer products (sum frequencies, harmonics, difference
frequencies, etc)."

My answer was: "Harmonics may be the reason that nobody have seen the
Phenomenon."

So why do you post here?

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.
The harvest is huge in your Group.
S*

then you REALLY need to talk to art, his waves are caused by magical
levitating diamagnetic neutrinos jumping off the antenna when the current
flows in, that would fit nicely with your misguided theory.

It is not mine. It is by Ampere, Gauss, Weber, Helmholtz and many other
prominent scientists.
Helmholtz wrote the same equations for whirls in fluids. Maxwell admited it
in his Treatise "On line of forces".
So EM is the hydraulic analogy. Now for electrons the Gas analogy is better.
I am only a kibitzer.
S*

Frequency doubling
 

U¿ytkownik "Richard Clark" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:00:56 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm?

I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday.

And you didn't even turn it on. Now THAT is lazy.

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.

You are not actually "doing" anything at all.

The most valuable was your statement: " An antenna radiates in ALL
directions from EVERYPOINT of
the antenna."
It meens for me that they are longitudinal. In ALL directions like
acoustics. From EVERYPOINT (of the end). In today's antennas before the end
are cabels in which the current oscyllates. EM waves radiate from this part
of the circuit where the current oscillate (in end no current). In the end
the electrons gathers periodically and radiate alternate electric field in
ALL directions.
Has it sense?
S*

So why do you post here?

Is another group on antennas?
S*

Frequency doubling
 

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It is not mine. It is by Ampere, Gauss, Weber, Helmholtz and many other
prominent scientists.
Helmholtz wrote the same equations for whirls in fluids. Maxwell admited
it in his Treatise "On line of forces".
So EM is the hydraulic analogy. Now for electrons the Gas analogy is
better.
I am only a kibitzer.
S*


An appeal to long-dead authorities? Where have we seen this before? The
logic seems to be: I cherry-picked a few ideas from the masters,
therefore they all agree with me. Chased you out of the physics
newsgroup did they Bialek?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Frequency doubling
 

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

U¿ytkownik "Richard Clark" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:00:56 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm?

I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday.

And you didn't even turn it on. Now THAT is lazy.

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.

You are not actually "doing" anything at all.

The most valuable was your statement: " An antenna radiates in ALL
directions from EVERYPOINT of
the antenna."
It meens for me that they are longitudinal. In ALL directions like
acoustics. From EVERYPOINT (of the end). In today's antennas before the
end are cabels in which the current oscyllates. EM waves radiate from
this part of the circuit where the current oscillate (in end no
current). In the end the electrons gathers periodically and radiate
alternate electric field in ALL directions.
Has it sense?
S*

So why do you post here?

Is another group on antennas?
S*

No, it hasn't sense. You need to post on the physics newsgroup where
your ideas will be appreciated by all the self-anointed geniuses who
think they understand electro-magnetics. Nothing anyone writes here is
going to convince you you're wrong. People with pet theories never give
them up. This newsgroup has become a repository for flawed physical
theories. Maybe, someday, it will get back to being a forum for hams who
just want to discuss antennas.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Frequency doubling
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
Has it sense?

no

Frequency doubling
 

On Sat, 16 May 2009 20:05:28 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

The most valuable was your statement: " An antenna radiates in ALL
directions from EVERYPOINT of
the antenna."
It meens for me that they are longitudinal.

Well, no one expects you to explain that, much less that you
understand it yourself.

So why do you post here?

Is another group on antennas?

What would that matter? It is obvious you are not really interested
in antennas - you clearly avoid the discussion of that topic.

So why do you post here?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

Szczepan Bialek,

I think I speak for the collective readership when I say we are
tired of your erroneous arguments about frequency doubling and its
causes.

You evidently have read a little about the Luxembourg effect, but
you failed to read the hundreds of articles available on the
Internet on this subject. I suspect your problem is one of language
and adolescent stubbornness combined.

To make things simple for you, do your search on "Ionospheric Cross
Modulation". This is defined by the IEC (Commission
Electrotechnique Internationale) in their IEC 60050 International
Electrotechnical Vocabulary as:

Ionospheric Cross Modulation, Luxembourg effect —
the modulation of a radio wave by the modulating signal of
another wave having a different frequency, resulting from
NON-LINEAR PHENOMENA in a region of the ionosphere through
which both waves pass.

Or if French is easier for you to read:

Transmodulation Ionosphérique, effet Luxembourg — modulation
d'une onde radioélectrique par le signal modulant d'une autre
onde de fréquence différente, qui résulte D'EFFETS
NON-LINÉAIRES dans une région de l'ionosphère traversée par
les deux ondes.

Note the emphasized words. Non-linearity of the D-layer of the
ionosphere is quite well understood today. In fact, most of the
initial mechanism was known before the Second World War. In the
late 1940's and in the 1950's, theories were improved as different
modes of propagation were studied. Today we find that this
ionospheric cross modulation effect has become a tool to study the
lower ionosphere.

For some good reading on this subject, I suggest reading "An
Introduction to the Ionosphere and Magnetosphere" by John Ashworth
Ratcliffe. Much of this book can be read using Google Book Search.
Another work found on the Web is the PhD dissertation of Mehmet
Kürsad Demirkol from Stanford University
(http://www-star.stanford.edu/~vlf/pu...kolThesis.pdf).
Quoting from his abstract:

Electron density and temperature changes in the D-region are
sensitively manifested as changes in the amplitude and phase
of subionospheric Very Low Frequency (VLF) signals
propagating beneath the perturbed region. Both localized and
large scale disturbances (either in electron density or
temperature) in the D-region cause significant scattering of
VLF waves propagating in the earth-ionosphere waveguide,
leading to measurable changes in the amplitude and phase of
the VLF waves. Large scale auroral disturbances, associated
with intensification of the auroral electrojet, as well as
ionospheric disturbances produced during relativistic
electron enhancements, cause characteristic changes over
relatively long time scales that allow the assessment of the
'ambient' ionosphere. Localized ionospheric disturbances are
also produced by powerful HF transmitting facilities such as
the High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) facility, the High
frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP*), and also by
lightning discharges. Amplitude and phase changes of VLF
waveguide signals scattered from such artificially heated
ionospheric patches are known to be detectable.

Nowhere in all of the respected literature will you find frequency
doubling caused by the two ends of a dipole. In fact, the end
"balls" of Hertz's experiments were nothing more than capacitance
hats. The experiment would have worked perfectly well without them.

You have pushed the patience to the breaking point of many of this
newsgroup's readers, including some experts far more knowledgeable
in electromagnetics than myself. Expletives from these people,
while certainly deserved, are not needed. Until Szczepan does his
research on ionospheric cross modulation, I suggest that we just
ignore him (or use a killfile).

--
73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ


* This group is also not the place to bring up conspiracy theories
involving this research program.

Frequency doubling
 

On Sat, 16 May 2009 19:43:27 -0400, "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz"
wrote:

I suspect your problem is one of language
and adolescent stubbornness combined.

Hi Barry,

I suspect you would be wrong on two counts, but that is of no
importance.

frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP*), and also by

* This group is also not the place to bring up conspiracy theories
involving this research program.

Good resources that will add to our composite knowledge. I will
browse them. As for HAARP, that "controversy" has faded considerable
from its first incendiary introduction years ago. I wonder if Stephan
will pick up on its implications.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Frequency doubling
 

"Tom Donaly" wrote
...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It is not mine. It is by Ampere, Gauss, Weber, Helmholtz and many other
prominent scientists.
Helmholtz wrote the same equations for whirls in fluids. Maxwell admited
it in his Treatise "On line of forces".
So EM is the hydraulic analogy. Now for electrons the Gas analogy is
better.
I am only a kibitzer.
S*


An appeal to long-dead authorities? Where have we seen this before? The
logic seems to be: I cherry-picked a few ideas from the masters, therefore
they all agree with me. Chased you out of the physics newsgroup did they
Bialek?

Chased out. No. Physics newsgroup is nice but there are all branches. Too
many posts, to many posters. Now I am in the subgroups: new theory and EM.
I am interesting in unifying gravity, electricity and magnetism. The
unifying is done by Aepinus and Ampere. I agree with them. But I understand
that as seperate are better to teach.
I also agree with Helmholtz that light waves are longitudinal.
With him do you agree?
S*

Frequency doubling
 

U¿ytkownik "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
Szczepan Bialek,

I think I speak for the collective readership when I say we are
tired of your erroneous arguments about frequency doubling and its
causes.

You evidently have read a little about the Luxembourg effect, but
you failed to read the hundreds of articles available on the
Internet on this subject. I suspect your problem is one of language
and adolescent stubbornness combined.

To make things simple for you, do your search on "Ionospheric Cross
Modulation". This is defined by the IEC (Commission
Electrotechnique Internationale) in their IEC 60050 International
Electrotechnical Vocabulary as:

Ionospheric Cross Modulation, Luxembourg effect —
the modulation of a radio wave by the modulating signal of
another wave having a different frequency, resulting from
NON-LINEAR PHENOMENA in a region of the ionosphere through
which both waves pass.

Or if French is easier for you to read:

Transmodulation Ionosphérique, effet Luxembourg — modulation
d'une onde radioélectrique par le signal modulant d'une autre
onde de fréquence différente, qui résulte D'EFFETS
NON-LINÉAIRES dans une région de l'ionosphère traversée par
les deux ondes.

Note the emphasized words. Non-linearity of the D-layer of the
ionosphere is quite well understood today. In fact, most of the
initial mechanism was known before the Second World War. In the
late 1940's and in the 1950's, theories were improved as different
modes of propagation were studied. Today we find that this
ionospheric cross modulation effect has become a tool to study the
lower ionosphere.

For some good reading on this subject, I suggest reading "An
Introduction to the Ionosphere and Magnetosphere" by John Ashworth
Ratcliffe. Much of this book can be read using Google Book Search.
Another work found on the Web is the PhD dissertation of Mehmet
Kürsad Demirkol from Stanford University
(http://www-star.stanford.edu/~vlf/pu...kolThesis.pdf).
Quoting from his abstract:

Electron density and temperature changes in the D-region are
sensitively manifested as changes in the amplitude and phase
of subionospheric Very Low Frequency (VLF) signals
propagating beneath the perturbed region. Both localized and
large scale disturbances (either in electron density or
temperature) in the D-region cause significant scattering of
VLF waves propagating in the earth-ionosphere waveguide,
leading to measurable changes in the amplitude and phase of
the VLF waves. Large scale auroral disturbances, associated
with intensification of the auroral electrojet, as well as
ionospheric disturbances produced during relativistic
electron enhancements, cause characteristic changes over
relatively long time scales that allow the assessment of the
'ambient' ionosphere. Localized ionospheric disturbances are
also produced by powerful HF transmitting facilities such as
the High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) facility, the High
frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP*), and also by
lightning discharges. Amplitude and phase changes of VLF
waveguide signals scattered from such artificially heated
ionospheric patches are known to be detectable.

Nowhere in all of the respected literature will you find frequency
doubling caused by the two ends of a dipole. In fact, the end
"balls" of Hertz's experiments were nothing more than capacitance
hats. The experiment would have worked perfectly well without them.

You have pushed the patience to the breaking point of many of this
newsgroup's readers, including some experts far more knowledgeable
in electromagnetics than myself. Expletives from these people,
while certainly deserved, are not needed. Until Szczepan does his
research on ionospheric cross modulation, I suggest that we just
ignore him (or use a killfile).

--
73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ


* This group is also not the place to bring up conspiracy theories
involving this research program.

Frequency doubling
 

"Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote
...
Szczepan Bialek,

I think I speak for the collective readership when I say we are
tired of your erroneous arguments about frequency doubling and its
causes.

You evidently have read a little about the Luxembourg effect, but
you failed to read the hundreds of articles available on the
Internet on this subject. I suspect your problem is one of language
and adolescent stubbornness combined.

I am retired and very lazy.

To make things simple for you, do your search on "Ionospheric Cross
Modulation". This is defined by the IEC (Commission
Electrotechnique Internationale) in their IEC 60050 International
Electrotechnical Vocabulary as:

Ionospheric Cross Modulation, Luxembourg effect —
the modulation of a radio wave by the modulating signal of
another wave having a different frequency, resulting from
NON-LINEAR PHENOMENA in a region of the ionosphere through
which both waves pass.

Or if French is easier for you to read:

Transmodulation Ionosphérique, effet Luxembourg — modulation
d'une onde radioélectrique par le signal modulant d'une autre
onde de fréquence différente, qui résulte D'EFFETS
NON-LINÉAIRES dans une région de l'ionosphère traversée par
les deux ondes.

Note the emphasized words. Non-linearity of the D-layer of the
ionosphere is quite well understood today. In fact, most of the
initial mechanism was known before the Second World War. In the
late 1940's and in the 1950's, theories were improved as different
modes of propagation were studied. Today we find that this
ionospheric cross modulation effect has become a tool to study the
lower ionosphere.

For some good reading on this subject, I suggest reading "An
Introduction to the Ionosphere and Magnetosphere" by John Ashworth
Ratcliffe. Much of this book can be read using Google Book Search.
Another work found on the Web is the PhD dissertation of Mehmet
Kürsad Demirkol from Stanford University
(http://www-star.stanford.edu/~vlf/pu...kolThesis.pdf).
Quoting from his abstract:

Electron density and temperature changes in the D-region are
sensitively manifested as changes in the amplitude and phase
of subionospheric Very Low Frequency (VLF) signals
propagating beneath the perturbed region. Both localized and
large scale disturbances (either in electron density or
temperature) in the D-region cause significant scattering of
VLF waves propagating in the earth-ionosphere waveguide,
leading to measurable changes in the amplitude and phase of
the VLF waves. Large scale auroral disturbances, associated
with intensification of the auroral electrojet, as well as
ionospheric disturbances produced during relativistic
electron enhancements, cause characteristic changes over
relatively long time scales that allow the assessment of the
'ambient' ionosphere. Localized ionospheric disturbances are
also produced by powerful HF transmitting facilities such as
the High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) facility, the High
frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP*), and also by
lightning discharges. Amplitude and phase changes of VLF
waveguide signals scattered from such artificially heated
ionospheric patches are known to be detectable.

Nowhere in all of the respected literature will you find frequency
doubling caused by the two ends of a dipole.

So I do not have to read the above.

In fact, the end
"balls" of Hertz's experiments were nothing more than capacitance
hats. The experiment would have worked perfectly well without them.

It is impossible to make the dipole without ends.

You have pushed the patience to the breaking point of many of this
newsgroup's readers, including some experts far more knowledgeable
in electromagnetics than myself. Expletives from these people,
while certainly deserved, are not needed. Until Szczepan does his
research on ionospheric cross modulation, I suggest that we just
ignore him (or use a killfile).

I encourage ALL you to make proper experiments with the "frequency doubling
caused by the two ends of a dipole."
See discussion with Wim:

"Hello Szczepan,

You are right, charge is compressible. The charge that is required to
charge (for example) a sphere seems

Seems or unquestionable?

to break the coninuity equition as
is used for incompressible fluid in hydraulics.

Continuity in electromagnetism is regained by introducing the D-field
(dielectric displacement). The D-field is responsible for the
capacitive current in case of varying E-field.

So in your products is the dielectric displacement or compressed electrons?

Regarding frequency doubling. We can be lucky. Antennas and
propagation behaves in virtually all cases linearly. From linear
systems you might know that input and output frequency are the same,
so no doubling in frequency.

Try understand me. Your Hertz dipole emits electrc waves from the TWO ends
(opposite phases). So the electrons in a receiving antenna are kicked twice
more frequent.

In case of non-linear parts in a system (for example a corroded
connector in an antenna cable that is used by two or more
transmitters, that may behave as a semiconductor), you might get so
called mixer products (sum frequencies, harmonics, difference
frequencies, etc).

Harmonics may be the reason that nobody have seen the Phenomenon.

If you would like to know more about EM-fields related to antennas and
electronics, just start with classical EM theory. This is a solid
tool, existing over 100 years and is used by many people with succes
to predict behaviour of circuits and antennas. If this will change of
today, I will close my business activities next monday.

EM existing over 100 years and will be used the next as the "piece to
teach".
Your business base on experiments.
Now You have the opportunity to make the most famous experiment in the
history.
If the result will be null I will change my hobby."
S*


--
73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ


* This group is also not the place to bring up conspiracy theories
involving this research program.

Frequency doubling
 

"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Sat, 16 May 2009 20:05:28 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

The most valuable was your statement: " An antenna radiates in ALL
directions from EVERYPOINT of
the antenna."
It meens for me that they are longitudinal.

Well, no one expects you to explain that, much less that you
understand it yourself.

Next your statement: "Actually you have mixed up two different
characteristics. Polarity
and polarization are NOT the same thing. With RF radiation, the wave
is constantly changing polarity (that is why the source of RF is
called alternating current), but within the "line of sight" of the
antenna, the polarization for a dipole is defined by its angle to the
earth as viewed by the observer.

If you see an horizontal dipole, it produces alternating polarities of
waves with horizontal polarization. If you see a vertical dipole, it
produces alternating polarities of waves with vertical polarization.

RF energy is ALWAYS changing polarity."

May be I do not understund but it seems that polarization means orientation
of the dipole.
But are the waves transversal?



So why do you post here?

Is another group on antennas?

What would that matter? It is obvious you are not really interested
in antennas - you clearly avoid the discussion of that topic.

I am interesting in what antennas radiate.

So why do you post here?

Here are experts.
S*

Frequency doubling
 

"Tom Donaly" wrote
...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

U¿ytkownik "Richard Clark" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:00:56 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

But not by you, in 2009. Are you too bored with the topic to turn on
a radio to confirm?

I took a glance on my very old radio (it has the all waves) yesterday.

And you didn't even turn it on. Now THAT is lazy.

I collect evidences that Radio Waves are longitudinal.

You are not actually "doing" anything at all.

The most valuable was your statement: " An antenna radiates in ALL
directions from EVERYPOINT of
the antenna."
It meens for me that they are longitudinal. In ALL directions like
acoustics. From EVERYPOINT (of the end). In today's antennas before the
end are cabels in which the current oscyllates. EM waves radiate from
this part of the circuit where the current oscillate (in end no current).
In the end the electrons gathers periodically and radiate alternate
electric field in ALL directions.
Has it sense?
S*

So why do you post here?

Is another group on antennas?
S*

No, it hasn't sense. You need to post on the physics newsgroup where your
ideas will be appreciated by all the self-anointed geniuses who
think they understand electro-magnetics. Nothing anyone writes here is
going to convince you you're wrong.

It is not the case. I am asking about some details and some of you simply
give them me.

People with pet theories never give them up.

Transversal vs. longitudinal is not theory. Next experiments are necessary.

This newsgroup has become a repository for flawed physical theories. Maybe,
someday, it will get back to being a forum for hams who just want to
discuss antennas.

Is it something wrong if a visitors asks about something?
S*
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Frequency doubling
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

Is it something wrong if a visitors asks about something?

if you ask then you would be expecting an answer and learn from that answer.
you have ignored the responses you have received and kept going back to your
own theories based on analogies that don't fit. if you really want to learn
then read and accept the answers you have received.