|
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
Hi C It looks like your "wire" antenna might actually be OK for your project. You have demonstrated that it works when the rocket is nearly 10 miles away when you hoped for 20 miles. Evidently, the antenna doesnt need to function while the rocket is accending. Are you able to improve the ground based antenna The equipment you now have would need only 6 dB improvement to provide the 20 mile range. I'd like to know more about your ground based antenna system. Jerry KD6JDJ (who has lots of small diameterTeflon dielectric coax to donate to a real project) Jerry: The "ground station" is not much; just a small receiver with a standard 1/2 wave dipole attached using an sma connector. The receiver is battery powered and connected to a laptop using a standard serial cable. We had thought about using a Yagi during the previous flight but it just got left by the wayside with everything else that had to be done. The basic telemetry and downlink system is manufactured by Ozark Aerospace (Erik Hall) but uses a Digi Int. 9Xstream radio modem (www.ozarkaerospace.com and I use the ARTS TX-900G and RX-900). I actually built my own transmitter and GPS system using a 5 watt data radio and Garmin GPS with a small Li-Ion battery pack. But that system was "lost" during a not so successful flight in Texas a few years ago. Hence, for this design I opted to buy something off the shelf that already worked. Most people using this system have fiberglass airframes so for them it is a simple matter to use a commercially available antenna mounted inside of the airfame. But this is an all metal design so I had the telemetry board made so I could connect my own antenna. FYI, the rocket is 15 feet long, 6" in diameter and weighs over 100 lbs empty and close to 200 lbs. on the pad. It is all aluminum, except for the nose cone which is laminated birch. I'm using metal for the airframe because it just easier to work with and the first 8 feet of the rocket is metal anyway as that is the motor case. The published range for this Digi Int. transmitter is 20 miles, though people doing amateur high-altitude balloon flights have reportedly observed even better reception from high altitudes (i.e., over 80 K feet). This rocket did about 85,000 feet last September at Black Rock, Nevada so it is doubtful that we will get GPS data at apogee anyway due to the COTS limitations. But I'd like to get as much as possible and will probably eventually convert to the 9Xtend modem which goes up to one watt xmit power. Curt Hi Curt I strongly suspect that you can use the antenna you now have on the rocket. There is a possibility that you hadnt optimized the pointing of the stub on the base station. You might be able to get enough system gain by using a simple Turnstile Antenna at the ground station ( Wikipedia ). If you decide you want more signal than you get with a Turnstile, it would be easy to build a 900 MHz Helix or Crossed Yagii. It seems very important to use a Circularly Polarized antenna at the ground station. Jerry |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
On Sun, 24 May 2009 07:30:03 GMT, "Jerry"
wrote: "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 24 May 2009 04:04:52 GMT, "Jerry" wrote: Have you considered flush antennas, like slots? Slot antennas have the maximum lobe perpendicular to the rocket axis. There's very little signal below the rocket. This is why tracking stations are far away from the launch site. If the rocket were overhead, and going straight up, there's no signal. Slot antennas are also a power waste. You need 4 slots, run by a power splitter, in order to insure that at least one antenna is oriented in the direction of the receiver. Meanwhile, the other 3 slot antennas are radiating power to nobody in particular. Say goodby to about 3/4th of your tx power. Receive sensitivity is not affected. Hi Jeff Why are you so negative?? I have designed and built lots of slot antennas that were widely used on military aircraft. The efficiency is quite good. I am sure a smart guy like you could design a slot antenna and locate it for those guys with the 3G rocket. There hasnt been any text that restricts where the slot could be located. As I read the original post, they werent receiving signal from the accending rocket. Maybe they only want to receive data that was recorded after the rocket reached it's peak. There are lots of information that you and I dont yet know. But, my major question for you is "Why are you so negative?". Jerry KD6JDJ I don't think I'm being particularly negative or offensive. I offered what I consider to be a more reasonable alternative (CP turnstile antenna) and ran the path loss calculations to insure that it would work. I also itemized why a slot antenna would be an inferior solution. My main point is that with a vertically ascending rocket, the antenna pattern should be primarily ahead and behind the rocket, not perpendicular. I've seen one paper design that used insulated fins for the 4 turnstile antenna elements. However, I haven't seen the actual rocket. I also built a 2.4GHz antenna system for a model airplane for a video downlink. The initial design was a slot antenna system in the fuselage, which worked great when the aircraft was overhead, but did badly when near the horizon and out of the antenna pattern. Two vertical monopoles and a power splitter did much better, especially since it worked well in inverted flight. I must admit that I haven't designed a slot antenna system for a high power Mach 3 rocket. I did build a small "G" motor rocket without telemetry but that doesn't count for much. Anyway, we're both guessing. Without a clue as to the size, geometry, and construction of the rocket, the configuration of the ground station antenna, the location of the ground station, and the approximate trajectory (probably straight up), we can only speculate as to the optimal design. My guess is that this a level 1 rocket with an "H" or "I" motor which could barely tolerate the slight increase in diameter required for multiple slot antnnas. Wire or fin antennas don't add anything. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
On May 24, 2:59*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
Hi C It looks like your "wire" antenna might actually be OK for your project.. You have demonstrated that it works when the rocket is nearly 10 miles away when you hoped for 20 miles. Evidently, the antenna doesnt need to function while the rocket is accending. Are you able to improve the ground based antenna The equipment you now have would need only 6 dB improvement to provide the 20 mile range. I'd like to know more about your ground based antenna system. Jerry KD6JDJ (who has lots of small diameterTeflon dielectric coax to donate to a real project) Jerry: The "ground station" is not much; just a small receiver with a standard 1/2 wave dipole attached using an sma connector. *The receiver is battery powered and connected to a laptop using a standard serial cable. We had thought about using a Yagi during the previous flight but it just got left by the wayside with everything else that had to be done. The basic telemetry and downlink system is manufactured by Ozark Aerospace (Erik Hall) but uses a Digi Int. 9Xstream radio modem (www.ozarkaerospace.comand I use the ARTS TX-900G and RX-900). *I actually built my own transmitter and GPS system using a 5 watt data radio and Garmin GPS with a small Li-Ion battery pack. But that system was "lost" during a not so successful flight in Texas a few years ago. Hence, for this design I opted to buy something off the shelf that already worked. Most people using this system have fiberglass airframes so for them it is a simple matter to use a commercially available antenna mounted inside of the airfame. But this is an all metal design so I had the telemetry board made so I could connect my own antenna. FYI, the rocket is 15 feet long, 6" in diameter and weighs over 100 lbs empty and close to 200 lbs. on the pad. It is all aluminum, except for the nose cone which is laminated birch. I'm using metal for the airframe because it just easier to work with and the first 8 feet of the rocket is metal anyway as that is the motor case. The published range for this Digi Int. transmitter is 20 miles, though people doing amateur high-altitude balloon flights have reportedly observed even better reception from high altitudes (i.e., over 80 K feet). This rocket did about 85,000 feet last September at Black Rock, Nevada so it is doubtful that we will get GPS data at apogee anyway due to the COTS limitations. But I'd like to get as much as possible and will probably eventually convert to the 9Xtend modem which goes up to one watt xmit power. Curt * Hi Curt * I strongly suspect that you can use the antenna you now have on the rocket. *There is a possibility that you hadnt optimized the pointing of the stub on the base station. *You might be able to get enough system gain by using a simple Turnstile Antenna at the ground station ( Wikipedia ). * If you decide you want more signal than you get with a Turnstile, it would be easy to build a 900 MHz Helix or Crossed Yagii. * It seems very important to use a Circularly Polarized antenna at the ground station. * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jerry I am familiar with the Helix antenna and the Yagi, but not a "crossed yagi." Am I correct in assuming that the crossed yagi is simply two yagis with the reflectors at right angles to each other (so that it looks like a cross when viewed from the end)? Directionality on the ground station is an issue though. Once the rocket goes out of sight (it was only visible for about three seconds of a nine minute flight), pointing the receiving antenna in the right direction and elevation would be guess work. I know that the yagi must be much more directional than the 1/2 wave dipole used before but how much I do not know. I would imagine it is determined by the number and spacing of the elements. I also think that having the transmitting antenna more perpendicular to the airfame will help during apogee and descent. Curt |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
"mr1956" wrote in message ... On May 24, 2:59 pm, "Jerry" wrote: Hi C It looks like your "wire" antenna might actually be OK for your project. You have demonstrated that it works when the rocket is nearly 10 miles away when you hoped for 20 miles. Evidently, the antenna doesnt need to function while the rocket is accending. Are you able to improve the ground based antenna The equipment you now have would need only 6 dB improvement to provide the 20 mile range. I'd like to know more about your ground based antenna system. Jerry KD6JDJ (who has lots of small diameterTeflon dielectric coax to donate to a real project) Jerry: The "ground station" is not much; just a small receiver with a standard 1/2 wave dipole attached using an sma connector. The receiver is battery powered and connected to a laptop using a standard serial cable. We had thought about using a Yagi during the previous flight but it just got left by the wayside with everything else that had to be done. The basic telemetry and downlink system is manufactured by Ozark Aerospace (Erik Hall) but uses a Digi Int. 9Xstream radio modem (www.ozarkaerospace.comand I use the ARTS TX-900G and RX-900). I actually built my own transmitter and GPS system using a 5 watt data radio and Garmin GPS with a small Li-Ion battery pack. But that system was "lost" during a not so successful flight in Texas a few years ago. Hence, for this design I opted to buy something off the shelf that already worked. Most people using this system have fiberglass airframes so for them it is a simple matter to use a commercially available antenna mounted inside of the airfame. But this is an all metal design so I had the telemetry board made so I could connect my own antenna. FYI, the rocket is 15 feet long, 6" in diameter and weighs over 100 lbs empty and close to 200 lbs. on the pad. It is all aluminum, except for the nose cone which is laminated birch. I'm using metal for the airframe because it just easier to work with and the first 8 feet of the rocket is metal anyway as that is the motor case. The published range for this Digi Int. transmitter is 20 miles, though people doing amateur high-altitude balloon flights have reportedly observed even better reception from high altitudes (i.e., over 80 K feet). This rocket did about 85,000 feet last September at Black Rock, Nevada so it is doubtful that we will get GPS data at apogee anyway due to the COTS limitations. But I'd like to get as much as possible and will probably eventually convert to the 9Xtend modem which goes up to one watt xmit power. Curt Hi Curt I strongly suspect that you can use the antenna you now have on the rocket. There is a possibility that you hadnt optimized the pointing of the stub on the base station. You might be able to get enough system gain by using a simple Turnstile Antenna at the ground station ( Wikipedia ). If you decide you want more signal than you get with a Turnstile, it would be easy to build a 900 MHz Helix or Crossed Yagii. It seems very important to use a Circularly Polarized antenna at the ground station. Jerry I am familiar with the Helix antenna and the Yagi, but not a "crossed yagi." Am I correct in assuming that the crossed yagi is simply two yagis with the reflectors at right angles to each other (so that it looks like a cross when viewed from the end)? Directionality on the ground station is an issue though. Once the rocket goes out of sight (it was only visible for about three seconds of a nine minute flight), pointing the receiving antenna in the right direction and elevation would be guess work. I know that the yagi must be much more directional than the 1/2 wave dipole used before but how much I do not know. I would imagine it is determined by the number and spacing of the elements. I also think that having the transmitting antenna more perpendicular to the airfame will help during apogee and descent. Curt Hi Curt I figured that your current telemetry system is demonstrated to be nearly good enough. From the info I now have, it seems that you need only 6 db additional gain to be able to double the distance between the rocket and the ground station. Since you used linear polarization on both the rocket and the ground station, it is possible that you will get adequate signal by making the base station antenna "Circular". If the rocket accends to 20 miles and the ground station is close to the place where the rocket started, the apogee point could be 2 miles from "straight up" and still be less than 5.7 degrees from straight up. I'd suggest using a base antenna with a pattern much wider than 11 1/2 degrees so the antenna needs to be pointed up, not aimed. I'd expect there are other rocket amateurs using simple Turnstile Antennas for their base station antenna. Jerry KD6JDJ |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
On May 24, 3:41*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
"mr1956" wrote in message ... On May 24, 2:59 pm, "Jerry" wrote: Hi C It looks like your "wire" antenna might actually be OK for your project. You have demonstrated that it works when the rocket is nearly 10 miles away when you hoped for 20 miles. Evidently, the antenna doesnt need to function while the rocket is accending. Are you able to improve the ground based antenna The equipment you now have would need only 6 dB improvement to provide the 20 mile range. I'd like to know more about your ground based antenna system. Jerry KD6JDJ (who has lots of small diameterTeflon dielectric coax to donate to a real project) Jerry: The "ground station" is not much; just a small receiver with a standard 1/2 wave dipole attached using an sma connector. The receiver is battery powered and connected to a laptop using a standard serial cable. We had thought about using a Yagi during the previous flight but it just got left by the wayside with everything else that had to be done. The basic telemetry and downlink system is manufactured by Ozark Aerospace (Erik Hall) but uses a Digi Int. 9Xstream radio modem (www.ozarkaerospace.comandI use the ARTS TX-900G and RX-900). I actually built my own transmitter and GPS system using a 5 watt data radio and Garmin GPS with a small Li-Ion battery pack. But that system was "lost" during a not so successful flight in Texas a few years ago. Hence, for this design I opted to buy something off the shelf that already worked. Most people using this system have fiberglass airframes so for them it is a simple matter to use a commercially available antenna mounted inside of the airfame. But this is an all metal design so I had the telemetry board made so I could connect my own antenna. FYI, the rocket is 15 feet long, 6" in diameter and weighs over 100 lbs empty and close to 200 lbs. on the pad. It is all aluminum, except for the nose cone which is laminated birch. I'm using metal for the airframe because it just easier to work with and the first 8 feet of the rocket is metal anyway as that is the motor case. The published range for this Digi Int. transmitter is 20 miles, though people doing amateur high-altitude balloon flights have reportedly observed even better reception from high altitudes (i.e., over 80 K feet). This rocket did about 85,000 feet last September at Black Rock, Nevada so it is doubtful that we will get GPS data at apogee anyway due to the COTS limitations. But I'd like to get as much as possible and will probably eventually convert to the 9Xtend modem which goes up to one watt xmit power. Curt Hi Curt I strongly suspect that you can use the antenna you now have on the rocket. There is a possibility that you hadnt optimized the pointing of the stub on the base station. You might be able to get enough system gain by using a simple Turnstile Antenna at the ground station ( Wikipedia ). If you decide you want more signal than you get with a Turnstile, it would be easy to build a 900 MHz Helix or Crossed Yagii. It seems very important to use a Circularly Polarized antenna at the ground station. Jerry I am familiar with the Helix antenna and the Yagi, but not a "crossed yagi." Am I correct in assuming that the crossed yagi is simply two yagis with the reflectors at right angles to each other (so that it looks like a cross when viewed from the end)? Directionality on the ground station is an issue though. Once the rocket goes out of sight (it was only visible for about three seconds of a nine minute flight), pointing the receiving antenna in the right direction and elevation would be guess work. I know that the yagi must be much more directional than the 1/2 wave dipole used before but how much I do not know. I would imagine it is determined by the number and spacing of the elements. I also think that having the transmitting antenna more perpendicular to the airfame will help during apogee and descent. Curt * Hi Curt * I figured that your current telemetry system is demonstrated to be nearly good enough. * From the info I now have, it seems that you need only 6 db additional gain to be able to double the distance between the rocket and the ground station. * Since you used linear polarization on both the rocket and the ground station, it is possible that you will get adequate signal by making the base station antenna "Circular". * If the rocket accends to 20 miles and the ground station is close to the place where the rocket started, the apogee point could be 2 miles from "straight up" and still be less than 5.7 degrees from straight up. *I'd suggest using a base antenna with a pattern much wider than 11 1/2 degrees so the antenna needs to be pointed up, not aimed. * I'd expect there are other rocket amateurs using simple Turnstile Antennas for their base station antenna. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jerry * KD6JDJ Jerry: By "circular" I assume you mean either a helix or crossed yagi so that the receiving angle is uniform around the axis of the antenna? Your assumptions are pretty close. The launch pad was about 1.25 miles from the ground station (to the north I think) and the rocket landed about 2.5 miles east of the receiving station. If I remember correctly, we got a good link down to about 4,000 feet during the descent on parachute. So if I fabricate or purchase an antenna with a sufficient receiving pattern, point it generally up but maybe slightly towards the pad, it should work. We were lucky that day as the winds aloft were not too bad. In addition, the rocket comes down fast, at about 75 feet/second so as to minimize drift. Everything was built for strength because I knew it would hit pretty hard. Let em play with some of the online calculators and see if I can come up with a helix design and do some searching for a crossed yagi. Curt |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
mr1956 wrote in
: .... I have been reading the ARRL antenna book and while there is much information, a lot of it is over my head. But one point I think a chapter makes is that a 1/4 wave monopole will work better than a 1/2 wave using an artificial ground plane because of the way the voltage peaks at the end of the antenna; or that is how it seems. Your transmitter is designed for a particular load impedance, almost certainly 50 ohms... check the specs. The load presented to the transmitter terminals depends on the feed point impedance of the antenna, and impedance transformation that may occur on the coaxial feedline. In the case you describe, the *antenna system* design was most unsuited to a 50 ohm transmitter, hence the considerable loss predicted. Your newer proposal for a quarter wave wire perpedicular to the rocket body with the coax shield connected to the metallic rocket body is not exactly 50 ohms, but probably close enough that antenna system efficiency will be fairly good and the transmitter should deliver most of its rated power. Owen |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
On May 24, 5:49*pm, Owen Duffy wrote:
mr1956 wrote : ... I have been reading the ARRL antenna book and while there is much information, a lot of it is over my head. *But one point I think a chapter makes is that a 1/4 wave monopole will work better than a 1/2 wave using an artificial ground plane because of the way the voltage peaks at the end of the antenna; or that is how it seems. Your transmitter is designed for a particular load impedance, almost certainly 50 ohms... check the specs. The load presented to the transmitter terminals depends on the feed point impedance of the antenna, and impedance transformation that may occur on the coaxial feedline. In the case you describe, the *antenna system* design was most unsuited to a 50 ohm transmitter, hence the considerable loss predicted. Your newer proposal for a quarter wave wire perpedicular to the rocket body with the coax shield connected to the metallic rocket body is not exactly 50 ohms, but probably close enough that antenna system efficiency will be fairly good and the transmitter should deliver most of its rated power. Owen What I have been finding out is developing a matching circuit for the output of the transmitter is not easy, at least for me and at that frequency. It could be done if I was a cell phone manufacturer. I think much will be gained by using the 1/4 wave as opposed to the 1/2 wave on the airframe and a yagi or helix antenna on the ground station. I will post a link to some images of the project when I have time. Information on the flight can be found at www.lokiresearch.com and look for information about the Proteus 6 flight at the Balls 17 event, Black Rock, NV September 2008. I'll also add some thoughts about how I intend to proceed based on everyone's great input from this forum. One quick question: Am I correct in assuming that the ground lead of the rocket mounted antenna should be as short as possible? i.e., the connection between the shield of the RG-178 and the metal airframe. Thanks, Curt |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
On Mon, 25 May 2009 09:48:23 -0700 (PDT), mr1956
wrote: One quick question: Am I correct in assuming that the ground lead of the rocket mounted antenna should be as short as possible? i.e., the connection between the shield of the RG-178 and the metal airframe. Very much so - mm instead of inches. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
mr1956 wrote in
: .... What I have been finding out is developing a matching circuit for the output of the transmitter is not easy, at least for me and at that frequency. It could be done if I was a cell phone manufacturer. I think much will be gained by using the 1/4 wave as opposed to the 1/2 wave on the airframe and a yagi or helix antenna on the ground station. The easy solution is the one I suggested. I will post a link to some images of the project when I have time. Information on the flight can be found at www.lokiresearch.com and look for information about the Proteus 6 flight at the Balls 17 event, Black Rock, NV September 2008. I'll also add some thoughts about how I intend to proceed based on everyone's great input from this forum. One quick question: Am I correct in assuming that the ground lead of the rocket mounted antenna should be as short as possible? i.e., the connection between the shield of the RG-178 and the metal airframe. Loss on the coax can be much worse when it is mismatched. I gave you figures for a 2000 ohm load (representing your end fed half wave antenna). The loss for 0.3m with a 30 ohm load is 0.5dB, it is 90% efficient. If you shorten it, you will reduce the loss, but I wouldn't obsess over it. The problem you have right now is due principally to high standing waves on the line and unsuitable transmitter load, and you solve much of that using a quarter wave antenna. Without a diagram, we are at great risk of misunderstanding. If you cannot affort the time to invest in making a drawing, you take the risk of misinterpretation of your words. The connection from the shield to the metal air frame and presumably metal skin should be short. Regard that the effective length of the antenna in that case is the distance from the shield to the tip of the whip. Owen |
Piano Wire Antenna for Experimental Rocket
On May 25, 5:26*pm, Owen Duffy wrote:
mr1956 wrote : ... What I have been finding out is developing a matching circuit for the output of the transmitter is not easy, at least for me and at that frequency. It could be done if I was a cell phone manufacturer. *I think much will be gained by using the 1/4 wave as opposed to the 1/2 wave on the airframe and a yagi or helix antenna on the ground station. The easy solution is the one I suggested. I will post a link to some images of the project when I have time. Information on the flight can be found atwww.lokiresearch.comand look for information about the Proteus 6 flight at the Balls 17 event, Black Rock, NV September 2008. I'll also add some thoughts about how I intend to proceed based on everyone's great input from this forum. *One quick question: Am I correct in assuming that the ground lead of the rocket mounted antenna should be as short as possible? i.e., the connection between the shield of the RG-178 and the metal airframe. Loss on the coax can be much worse when it is mismatched. I gave you figures for a 2000 ohm load (representing your end fed half wave antenna).. The loss for 0.3m with a 30 ohm load is 0.5dB, it is 90% efficient. If you shorten it, you will reduce the loss, but I wouldn't obsess over it. The problem you have right now is due principally to high standing waves on the line and unsuitable transmitter load, and you solve much of that using a quarter wave antenna. Without a diagram, we are at great risk of misunderstanding. If you cannot affort the time to invest in making a drawing, you take the risk of misinterpretation of your words. The connection from the shield to the metal air frame and presumably metal skin should be short. Regard that the effective length of the antenna in that case is the distance from the shield to the tip of the whip. Owen OK, I think I know generally how to proceed from here. FYI, some images of the previous design can be found at the following URLs: http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/Curtjeff.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/u...09/liftoff.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/u.../Coupler02.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/u...009/Elec05.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/u...ery04small.jpg This one is an image of the type of gear I normally work with: http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/u.../Guam02004.jpg So the key points are as follows: 1. Fabricate a 1/4 wave antenna and mount that is totally exterior to the metal airfame and terminate the coax as close as possible to the antenna. 2. I imagine that I could start off with a longer than needed whip antenna, then trim it back while taking measurements with the RF millivolt meter until it looks like I've gotten maximum signal strength. 3. Use either a helix or yagi receiving antenna on the ground station to boost the signal strength on the receiving end. I accept that words alone are not always sufficient to describe such things but I think the important issues have been well described by everyone here. I can only make the RG-178 whip connecting the transmitter to the antenna so short, as I need sufficient length to remove the electronics from inside of the avionics compartment to change batteries,etc. But I think the critical issues are having a direct and solid electrical connection between the antenna and coax and using a higher db antenna on the receiving end; the ground based antenna may make the most difference in the end. I'll have to go back and look at the posts to make sure I've gotten all of the information right and if anyone has any more questions after reviewing the images please let me know and I will respond as needed. Also, there should be an article coming out in Smithsonian Air & Space magazine in the "Above and Beyond" section sometime in the future describing this particular flight and more information is online at www.lokiresearch.com (the Proteus 6 flight). Curt |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:19 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com