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"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
In the Hertz apparatus the charges (electrons) have at the centre the
max velocity and the acceleration equal zero.
At ends the situation is opposite. So your answer should be: "the ends
radiate of course".

of course you are wrong. there is a smooth transition between the center
and the ends, that whole length radiates. you can't just look at the
boundry conditions, you have to consider the whole length.

Yes. But the radiation is not uniform. What radiate stronger: the centre
or the ends?

both. when the current is high in the center it is creating a stronger
magnetic field, and when that current reaches the end it creates the highest
voltage so makes more electric field... both are part of the
electro-magnetic wave.



It is very funny that engineers use electrons and do not know that in
the "Maxwell's equations" no electrons, There is incompressible massless
fluid.
You here do not use the "Maxwell's equations". The teachers use them to
teach math.
Engineers use the empirical equations following the rule "accelerating
charges create radiation".

Gauss's law is about charged particles, the one art so much likes to
distort.. and don't forget that the 'i' term is also about charged
particles moving... if they can move they are not imcompressible, and
since the force on them can be measured and accelerations are not
infinite they are not massless.

We all know now that the electrons are "not imcompressible, and since
the force on them can be measured and accelerations are not infinite they
are not massless."
But do you know what the electricity was like in the Maxwell theory from
1865?

sure, its the same as today. since his equations still work the electricity
hasn't changed.

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"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...

Gauss's law of Statics is the subject law.

Ok, you capitalize that as if it were a specific law... provide a
reference, other than your own posts, for "Gauss's law of Statics". If
you can't do that, provide the specific equation you are refering to.

come on art, cite the specific reference for "Gauss's law of Statics".

can't answer a specific simple question art?? you much prefer to handwave
and berate others, i ask a simple direct question that is at the core of
all your ranting and you can't even answer it. without that answer the
rest of your posts are just empty shells. give us this magical "Gauss's
law of Statics" that you base everything on!


come on art, one specific simple question...cite the specific reference for
"Gauss's law of Statics". or are you going to pull another vanishing act
and come back later just to start fresh with more bafflegab?

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On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:49:33 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:08:22 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

But do you know what the electricity was like in the
Maxwell theory from 1865?

It employed 20 equations with 20 unknowns. Can you name THREE?

Let's skip that, because you can not, of course.

It was recast as quaternions - I won't ask the impossible from you to
state TWO.

You have yet to manage how long it took for ONE electron to travel
end-to-end on Hertz's first loop.

So answering your questions is like sending Cuisinart to Darfur. Do
you know what electricity is like there? Any year?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Another way to put this:

The actual mean drift velocity for electrons at any reasonable curent
is quite low because there are so many of them in the conductor.
However, the electric wave driving them propagates at he speed of
light appropriate for the medium.

W0BF

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Bruce W. Ellis wrote:
The actual mean drift velocity for electrons at any reasonable curent
is quite low because there are so many of them in the conductor.
However, the electric wave driving them propagates at he speed of
light appropriate for the medium.

The electrons move hardly at all at RF/AC frequencies.
On the average, they tend to oscillate mostly in place.
What travels at the speed of light are the photons
emitted by the oscillating electrons. The electrons
form the equivalent of a "bucket brigade" for the
photonic wave energy.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

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On May 31, 5:28*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Bruce W. Ellis wrote:
The actual mean drift velocity for electrons at any reasonable curent
is quite low because there are so many of them in the conductor.
However, the electric wave driving them propagates at he speed of
light appropriate for the medium.

The electrons move hardly at all at RF/AC frequencies.
On the average, they tend to oscillate mostly in place.
What travels at the speed of light are the photons
emitted by the oscillating electrons. The electrons
form the equivalent of a "bucket brigade" for the
photonic wave energy.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil
Does that mean that a radiator reduces mass with use
because the electrons orbiting around the atom are losing mass?
You are basically stating that an electron in orbit is travelling at
the speed of light
which thus imparts the same velocity to a photon which there fore also
has mass
since it has the same speed as the electron in orbit! Something wrong
there!

And for the other gentleman, what exactly is an electric wave?
Does it stay in place or does it leave the radiator?
Does it have mass such that the radiator gets lighter in use?
It is beginning to appear to me that hams are not sure what creats
radiation
and what constitutes radiation!
Art

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On May 31, 5:28*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Bruce W. Ellis wrote:
The actual mean drift velocity for electrons at any reasonable curent
is quite low because there are so many of them in the conductor.
However, the electric wave driving them propagates at he speed of
light appropriate for the medium.

The electrons move hardly at all at RF/AC frequencies.
On the average, they tend to oscillate mostly in place.
What travels at the speed of light are the photons
emitted by the oscillating electrons. The electrons
form the equivalent of a "bucket brigade" for the
photonic wave energy.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

Gentleman,
People are so glib when they speak of the speed of light.
When a time varying current is applied to a conductor there are
several reactances involved by that conductor.
One of them has the same characteristic speed which is often
attributed to light. It is this characteristic speed of an item that
impacts another item and thus imparts the same speed to that which is
impacted. Obviously that which is impacted is responsible for the
emission of light when it enters a resistive medium as latent energy
is distributed during the transition from potential to kinetic energy.
It also posseses a charge which is accellerated! Does that ring a
bell? I suggest you investigate the speed of capacitor discharge first
to see if that is possibly the instigator of such high speed and move
on from there
Art

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On Sun, 31 May 2009 17:19:43 -0500, Bruce W. Ellis
wrote:

You have yet to manage how long it took for ONE electron to travel
end-to-end on Hertz's first loop.

Another way to put this:

The actual mean drift velocity for electrons at any reasonable curent
is quite low because there are so many of them in the conductor.
However, the electric wave driving them propagates at he speed of
light appropriate for the medium.

Hi Bruce,

Well put to the point above, but for my money Stephan probably
couldn't follow through to a numerical solution. Retirement appears
to have him drifting through newsgroups; gracing us all with the
enlightening questions of an acolyte pondering the eternal mysteries.
If he were a monk begging for rice, he would starve at this rate.

Art, on the other hand, is like a monk with a gallon of gas....

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

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"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

Do you really want 50 year old coax?

Hm-m-m Maybe not.


From sunspots to elephant cages. One small step for Art. One giant
leap for most of the newsgroup participants.

Luckily going OT isn't a felony or we'd all be doing some hard time.
Thanks for the nice pics.

"Sal"
(KD6VKW)
CTMC/EWCS, USN (Ret.)

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"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:08:22 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

But do you know what the electricity was like in the
Maxwell theory from 1865?

It employed 20 equations with 20 unknowns. Can you name THREE?

Let's skip that, because you can not, of course.

It was recast as quaternions - I won't ask the impossible from you to
state TWO.

You have yet to manage how long it took for ONE electron to travel
end-to-end on Hertz's first loop.

So answering your questions is like sending Cuisinart to Darfur. Do
you know what electricity is like there? Any year?

"1861 - Maxwell publishes a mechanical model of the electromagnetic field.
Magnetic fields correspond to rotating vortices with idle wheels between
them and electric fields correspond to elastic displacements, hence
displacement currents. The equation for now becomes , where is the total
current, conduction plus displacement, and is conserved: . This addition
completes Maxwell's equations and it is now easy for him to derive the wave
equation exactly as done in our textbooks on electromagnetism and to note
that the speed of wave propagation was close to the measured speed of light.
Maxwell writes, ``We can scarcely avoid the inference that light in the
transverse undulations of the same medium which is the cause of electric and
magnetic phenomena.'' Thomson, on the other hand, says of the displacement
current, ``(it is a) curious and ingenious, but not wholly tenable
hypothesis.''

"1864 - Maxwell reads a memoir before the Royal Society in which the
mechanical model is stripped away and just the equations remain. He also
discusses the vector and scalar potentials, using the Coulomb gauge. He
attributes physical significance to both of these potentials. He wants to
present the predictions of his theory on the subjects of reflection and
refraction, but the requirements of his mechanical model keep him from
finding the correct boundary conditions, so he never does this calculation."
From: http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/phys442/node4.html

Try understand: "the mechanical model is stripped away and just the
equations remain."

Now engineers are using model with compressible, massive electrons. The
equations are used by teacher to teach the math.

According to Maxwell model the radio waves are transversal. Are such in your
radio reality?

S*
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

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"Richard Clark" wrote
...
On Sun, 31 May 2009 17:19:43 -0500, Bruce W. Ellis
wrote:

You have yet to manage how long it took for ONE electron to travel
end-to-end on Hertz's first loop.

Another way to put this:

The actual mean drift velocity for electrons at any reasonable curent
is quite low because there are so many of them in the conductor.
However, the electric wave driving them propagates at he speed of
light appropriate for the medium.

Hi Bruce,

Well put to the point above, but for my money Stephan probably
couldn't follow through to a numerical solution. Retirement appears
to have him drifting through newsgroups; gracing us all with the
enlightening questions of an acolyte pondering the eternal mysteries.
If he were a monk begging for rice, he would starve at this rate.

Art, on the other hand, is like a monk with a gallon of gas....

You are right when you are writing about antennas and me. I hope that my
"enlightening questions" make that you (engineering people) start to press
on teachers to stop teaching about Maxwell model (transverse waves).
S*