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On Jun 1, 9:14*pm, tom wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
On Jun 1, 6:44 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
Does that mean that a radiator reduces mass with use
because the electrons orbiting around the atom are losing mass?
Since mass and energy are equivalent, I suppose the mass
of the radiator increases with increasing power input.
The increase in mass can be calculated but the average
ham has no way of measuring the increase. No need to
worry about the tower falling down due to additional
mass from energized electrons. :-)

The antenna is charged up to a certain energy level
during the key-down transient state. Since the energy
content of the antenna cannot increase forever, it must lose
energy as photonic radiation and/or as heat during steady-state.

Free electrons in a conductor travel at much less than the
speed of light. Photons are emitted from the electrons at
the speed of light. A quote from:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SpeedOfElectrons

"For example, for a copper wire of radius 1 mm carrying
a steady current of 10 Amps, the drift velocity is only
about 0.024 cm/sec!" i.e. about 0.01 inch/second. Ignoring
random movements, the electrons at our RF transmitter never
reach the antenna. At 10 MHz, the electrons move less than
0.000000001 inch during a 100 nS cycle involving a 100 watt
transmitter, i.e. they mostly oscillate in place.

However, other electrons, traveling at a large percentage
of the speed of light, are quite massive as observed in
particle accelerators and radioactive decay.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, *http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil
The above is confusing unbound particles with bound particles both of

snip
Good, but not one of your great Carrollesque.

*this collection of particles are in a state of three dimensional
equilibrium in relation to other similar clusters of particles which
provides a mass that in total is in static equilibrium
within its own boundary. If you supply energy to this mass in
equilibrium the frequency of rotation of particles increases and could
increase to the point of the frequency of light where, if it
continues, could become vaporised such that we now have a new medium
consisting of partial pressures of gasses.

Just amazing in it's wrongness, but it could easily convince the
ignorant masses our schools now create. *This is just incredible fiction!

How do you do it?

snip

Art

tom
K0TAR

I think it is convincing too.
Science is wonderfull when you connect every thing together and a
picture becomes visible. Same goes for cross word puzzles. My UK born
son was educated in American schools starting with Montessori. He now
earns a good living at La Hoya so education in America is not the
culprit for your observations. Maybe you are over estimating your own
abilities when comparing. However, now is your chance to correct the
"wrongness" that I quote.
I am all ears. After all you have won competitions with your antenna
designed but garnished from the many text books. Note that David is
now comfortable in giving displacement current some credit for
propagation so he must be younger than I thought
according to your interpretations. Now how does a wave traverse the
Earth without
collapsing? What is the connection to light? Does the "belts" that
surround the World act as breakwaters which accounts for the rainy
seasons?I suspect that it is explained in the books somewhere except
that somebody removed a page! Actually, I dreamt most of it and also
made antennas following the small print, and they worked ! Well at
least in my dreams. It must be a miracle. What do you think?
Art
Art

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Art Unwin wrote:

I think it is convincing too.
Science is wonderfull when you connect every thing together and a
picture becomes visible. Same goes for cross word puzzles. My UK born
son was educated in American schools starting with Montessori. He now
earns a good living at La Hoya so education in America is not the
culprit for your observations. Maybe you are over estimating your own
abilities when comparing. However, now is your chance to correct the
"wrongness" that I quote.
snip
Art
Art

You really don't get how science works, do you?

WE DON'T HAVE TO PROVE YOU WRONG.

YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOU ARE RIGHT.

You haven't done that.

In fact, you haven't even started to do that.

tom
K0TAR Not G and proud of it if Art is an example

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On Jun 1, 10:54*pm, tom wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:

I think it is convincing too.
Science is wonderfull when you connect every thing together and a
picture becomes visible. Same goes for cross word puzzles. My UK born
son was educated in American schools starting with Montessori. He now
earns a good living at La Hoya so education in America is not the
culprit for your observations. Maybe you are over estimating your own
abilities when comparing. However, now is your chance to correct the
"wrongness" that I quote.
snip
Art
Art

You really don't get how science works, do you?

WE DON'T HAVE TO PROVE YOU WRONG.

YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOU ARE RIGHT.

You haven't done that.

In fact, you haven't even started to do that.

tom
K0TAR Not G and proud of it if Art is an example

Where does it say I have to prove it ?
Maxwell proved it 150 years ago, so why does it have to happen all
over again?
Either way, everybody says it can't work or it doesn't work so what
are you asking for, a drum roll? Why don't you write a book on
antennas like David so at last the truth is revealed with respect to
antennas. You could steal my thunder if I decided to become an author
If you are happy with what you have then be satisfied and live happily
ever after.
You have proved yourself a winner with the multiple antenna building
awards that you have
in the many shoot outs that you have entered. Isn't that enough for
you, the antenna king?
When you decided to pick a fight with me did you really believe I
would run away and hide?
Art
Art KB9MZ......xg ( uk) just for you Tom

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"tom" wrote in message
. net...
Sal M. Onella wrote:

Just a guess, but maybe it deals with the Wullenweber [or Wullenwever]
antenna, described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wullenweber and
elsewhere.


Actually, unlike Wullenweber, they have multiple concentric rings of
verticals in the array with a complex phasing system. My guess is that
this may have been a contributor to the methods eventually used in
phased array radars. But also something that was an engineering study,
and not necessarily practical.

Our Wullenweber at Hanza had two concentric rings of antennas, the high band
and the low band. And it did have a phasing system to form a beam. The
pattern was very sharp.

Oddly, most of what shows in a Wullenweber photograph isn't antennas, at
all, but the passive screens that give the array its characteristic of
seeing just off to one side. In some photos the ring of monopole antennas
can be tough to spot.

Unfortunately for this discussion, I didn't work in any of the DF shops. I
was in the Comm Shop -- crypto, TTY, telephone & mux maintenance. What I
learned about DF was just picked up along the way.

"Sal"

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"Registered User" wrote
...
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:25:06 +0200, Szczepan Bia³ek
wrote:


That are speculations only. Everybody know that at the end of an antenna
the
high voltage appears.

Even for a controlled current distribution dipole?

All time I am writing about the original Hertz apparatus. See:
(http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jone...Hertz_exp.html

There the ends of the dipole are named "capacitor plates". In the center of
the dipole the sparks jump. The question is which part of the Hertz
apparatus radiate? The capacitor plates (voltage pulses) or the sparks (AC
current).

AC current create the transverse waves. The capacitor plates (or balls)
longitudinal waves.
What are the radio waves: transversal or longitudinal?
S*

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"Art Unwin" wrote
...
On Jun 1, 2:39 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

"1861 - Maxwell publishes a mechanical model of the electromagnetic field.
Magnetic fields correspond to rotating vortices with idle wheels between
them and electric fields correspond to elastic displacements, hence
displacement currents. The equation for now becomes , where is the total
current, conduction plus displacement, and is conserved: . This addition
completes Maxwell's equations and it is now easy for him to derive the
wave
equation exactly as done in our textbooks on electromagnetism and to note
that the speed of wave propagation was close to the measured speed of
light.
Maxwell writes, ``We can scarcely avoid the inference that light in the
transverse undulations of the same medium which is the cause of electric
and
magnetic phenomena.'' Thomson, on the other hand, says of the displacement
current, ``(it is a) curious and ingenious, but not wholly tenable
hypothesis.''

"1864 - Maxwell reads a memoir before the Royal Society in which the
mechanical model is stripped away and just the equations remain. He also
discusses the vector and scalar potentials, using the Coulomb gauge. He
attributes physical significance to both of these potentials. He wants to
present the predictions of his theory on the subjects of reflection and
refraction, but the requirements of his mechanical model keep him from
finding the correct boundary conditions, so he never does this
calculation."
From:http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/phys442/node4.html

Try understand: "the mechanical model is stripped away and just the
equations remain."

Now engineers are using model with compressible, massive electrons. The
equations are used by teacher to teach the math.

According to Maxwell model the radio waves are transversal. Are such in
your
radio reality?

S*

Hi S,
Interesting to read what you say as there are many similarities to my
antenna work.

Yes. But I do not try to work out a new theory. For me the 200 years old
"acoustic analogy" is enough.

A small addition with respect to light formation. Displacement current

Displacement current is necessary in the model with electricity in form of
the incompressible fluid. Incompressible fluid is a history.

is the action required of three dimensional equilibrium which is why I
often point to the helicopter as an example,
same thing goes for a gyroscope or the Sedgway scooter. It is this
circular motion that holds to the understanding of light since this
provides the spin of a particle such that it has straight line
trajectory.

Straight line trajectory is normal phnomenon at the high frequences. The
ultrasonic waves are like radii (see sonar)

The frequency of circular motion is what changes when the
particle enters a medium that is resistive where the spin increases to
maintain
the straight line projection. The energy for this increase in spin is
the latent energy that is removed from
the particles potential energy similar to latent heat with liquids.
Thus energy is conserved by the increase in spin which is analogous to
change in frequency!
This change in frequency brings the particle into the area of color ,
light and X rays ie higher frequencies and the latent energy shows up
as light until there is no more energy left and the particle has
vaporized such that light progresses to invisiblity. This being
similar to the effects shown of a meteorite as it comes into contact
with the resistive environment of Earth.

Each new theory is very difficult for me. I prefer descriptions of
experiments and observations.


With respect to radiation from the ends of a radiator. This can only
happen when the radiator is a fraction of a wavelength when the law of
equilibrium is violated. The accellaration of charge at the end is
without spin applied and tho there is radiation it becomes non
directional and unable to overcome the gravitational force and falls
within a short distance.

Try the acoustic analogy. Here the all is easy. Quite opposite as in the
Maxwell model: "He wants to
present the predictions of his theory on the subjects of reflection and
refraction, but the requirements of his mechanical model keep him from
finding the correct boundary conditions, so he never does this
calculation".

The only reason for Maxwell model is the light polarisation. In his era the
polarisation was explained with transverse waves. Now we know (from Clark)
that the apparatus is polarised not waves.
Regards,
S*

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Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
AC current create the transverse waves. The capacitor plates (or balls)
longitudinal waves.
What are the radio waves: transversal or longitudinal?

The radial currents on the capacitor plates are 180
degrees out of phase. A lot of the radiation from the
plates simply cancels.

Ramo and Whinnery say that radiation is "primarily
TEM", i.e. TEM is the "principle mode".
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

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Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
Displacement current is necessary in the model with electricity in form
of the incompressible fluid. Incompressible fluid is a history.

It may be that you are using a lumped-circuit model
when you should be using a distributed network model.
According to Drs. Corum, the lumped-circuit model
starts to fall apart at 15 degrees, i.e. 0/04WL.
These web pages may be of interest to you.

http://www.ttr.com/TELSIKS2001-MASTER-1.pdf

http://www.ttr.com/corum/index.htm
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

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"Cecil Moore" wrote
...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
AC current create the transverse waves. The capacitor plates (or balls)
longitudinal waves.
What are the radio waves: transversal or longitudinal?

The radial currents on the capacitor plates are 180
degrees out of phase. A lot of the radiation from the
plates simply cancels.

Electrical dipole radiation is known from Gauss time.
For us the two plates (or balls - Hertz used them also) are the two sources
of electric longitudinal waves.
For this reason in 1933 the frequency doubling was observed.

Ramo and Whinnery say that radiation is "primarily
TEM", i.e. TEM is the "principle mode".

It is easy to say. Tell me if you have ever seen the emitting antenna which
has the "current zone" exposed and the ends covered?
According to Maxwell the tranversal waves MUST be created by AC current. DC
current create the magnetic whirl. AC current create oscillating whirl. Such
oscillating whirl starts the transverse wave. But this Maxwell proposition
is not verified to now.
S*

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"Cecil Moore" wrote
...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
Displacement current is necessary in the model with electricity in form
of the incompressible fluid. Incompressible fluid is a history.

It may be that you are using a lumped-circuit model
when you should be using a distributed network model.
According to Drs. Corum, the lumped-circuit model
starts to fall apart at 15 degrees, i.e. 0/04WL.
These web pages may be of interest to you.

http://www.ttr.com/TELSIKS2001-MASTER-1.pdf

http://www.ttr.com/corum/index.htm

There are details. For me interesting are only fundamentals.
It starts from:
"Maxwell wrote:
The conception of the propagation of transverse magnetic disturbances to the
exclusion of normal ones is distinctly set forth by Professor Faraday in his
"Thoughts on Ray Vibrations." The electromagnetic theory of light, as
proposed by him, is the same in substance as that which I have begun to
develop in this paper, except that in 1846 there were no data to calculate
the velocity of propagation." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_force

The TRANSVERSAL magnetic disturbances have beautifull math. The most beauty
math element is the displacement current.

But the magnetic disturbances are creates by AC CURRENT (not voltage).

So if the radio waves are emitted from the current zone of antenna Maxwell
is right. If from ends - not.

Maxwell admired Ampere. But each genius works out his own theories. We can
choose between them.

S*






--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com