Thanks to all you guys for responding. Good info.
Here's a quick update.
I turned off the main breaker in my house and still have the noise.
As you experts point out, it is tough to get a bearing on the noise
with HF measurements. I tried on 20, 15, 10 with a 3 element yagi and
got peaks and nulls in different directions. Also with a 5 element 6
meter beam. Advice on the ARRL site said to use VHF, so as a first
cut I drove the neighborhood with my FT100 mobile rig, mode AM, and 2
meter 1/4 wave antenna. S meter is approximately S2 everywhere except
near two poles where it goes up to S7.
This is a rural area, heavily wooded, with houses set way back from
the street. Along the street there are many transformers on the
poles, with taps coming from the high voltage. Also there are these
approximately 1 foot long fuses. I know, because when the squirrels
get across my transformer that is the fuse that blows like a shotgun.
So there are many places where a bad connection could occur.

This morning I make my first call to the power company. I'm in
central NJ. Stay tuned.
And thanks again for the tremendous help and interest.

Rick K2XT

ps - I started this discussion on the antenna newsgroup because it
seemed most appropriate. I hope it's ok if we keep it here. I don't
crosspost.

Walking around using an old RatShack portable short wave radio I was able
to track down an unusual noise source (an incessant clicking that was all
over 40-160m. I was able to aim the portable antenna at various wires
while walking around. This particular noise turned out to be someone's
bad telephone. When the telephone was disconnected, this loud
click-click-click disappeared. Seems like that bad telephone was somehow
"transmitting" this noise back through the phone lines.

Admittedly the noise from the power lines here are much more difficult to
pin down and seems to change with the weather. It can be very annoying
and discouraging. There is a high voltage transformer right here next to
the house, which means those hv lines are coming right down my driveway.
Designing an antenna which is not even close to parallel to these power
lines has helped somewhat. I am hoping the new 160m full wave loop which
will be further away is going to be a big improvement. I am just hoping
that the ladder line feed to this loop will not also pick up the noise.
If so I will have to change that feedline to coax which will be a
compromise.

Impoving my RF ground and making sure it was totally independent from the
A.C. safety ground at the house main has helped also. My primary RF
ground cable goes through a hole in the floor at the station and
immediately to a copper pipe driven in under the house. This first run is
shorter than 6'. This first copper pipe is then tied to several others at
about 10' apart to make up for the fact that they are only driven 5' into
the ground. Make sure your RF ground is independent of the house AC
safety ground. I also use a constant voltage transformer and a good power
conditioner because the AC here is a mess.

-bill

Rick wrote:

Thanks to all you guys for responding. Good info.
Here's a quick update.
I turned off the main breaker in my house and still have the noise.
As you experts point out, it is tough to get a bearing on the noise
with HF measurements. I tried on 20, 15, 10 with a 3 element yagi and
got peaks and nulls in different directions. Also with a 5 element 6
meter beam. Advice on the ARRL site said to use VHF, so as a first
cut I drove the neighborhood with my FT100 mobile rig, mode AM, and 2
meter 1/4 wave antenna. S meter is approximately S2 everywhere except
near two poles where it goes up to S7.
This is a rural area, heavily wooded, with houses set way back from
the street. Along the street there are many transformers on the
poles, with taps coming from the high voltage. Also there are these
approximately 1 foot long fuses. I know, because when the squirrels
get across my transformer that is the fuse that blows like a shotgun.
So there are many places where a bad connection could occur.

This morning I make my first call to the power company. I'm in
central NJ. Stay tuned.
And thanks again for the tremendous help and interest.

Rick K2XT

ps - I started this discussion on the antenna newsgroup because it
seemed most appropriate. I hope it's ok if we keep it here. I don't
crosspost.

zeno wrote:

Walking around using an old RatShack portable short wave...

Impoving my RF ground and making sure it was totally independent from the
A.C. safety ground at the house main has helped also. My primary RF
ground cable goes through a hole in the floor at the station and
immediately to a copper pipe driven in under the house.

I did the same thing -- a 10 ft copper clad steel rod driven through a hole
in the concrete of my basement floor. The floor is about 5 feet below
ground level. I found out later that this was not a great idea because
the floor shields the ground below from moisture -- measuring the ground
rod to my waterpipe later showed a dc resistance of almost 50 ohms -- it
would have made a better dummy load. I have since put 4 10 foot copper
clad steel ground rods outside and bonded them together using silver
solder. This works much better.

A chum of mine, noting my problematic results, decided to go sideways
through his basement concrete intothe back yard where the soil would
be moist. The end result was partially flooding his basement after the first rain!
He wasn't home at the time!

I should note that the ground rods only provide the safety ground, however
they serve as the base for a number of other ground wires spread around
the yard in a sort of helter-skelter radial system. This provides a
pretty good RF ground.

Moral: The best intentions often have unintended consequences!

Irv VE6BP
--
--------------------------------------
Diagnosed Type II Diabetes March 5 2001
Beating it with diet and exercise!
297/215/210 (to be revised lower)
58"/43"(!)/44" (already lower too!)
--------------------------------------
Visit my HomePage at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv/
Visit my very special website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv4/
Visit my CFSRS/CFIOG ONLINE OLDTIMERS website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv5/
--------------------
Irv Finkleman,
Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:47:04 GMT, zeno wrote:

Make sure your RF ground is independent of the house AC
safety ground. I also use a constant voltage transformer and a good power
conditioner because the AC here is a mess.

Hi Bill,

The combination of these two statements could kill you. If AC is a
mess, and if you have your own independent ground, then there may come
a day when you connect/disconnect a wire between them (and it is
guaranteed to be there) that has enough potential to blow your fuse.

Think about it. The most common method of connect/disconnect involves
the use of both hands, one wire in each (think of holding onto shelled
connectors), with a path across the heart - classic killer scenario.

Having separate grounds is against code. Being against code it is
also a loophole for insurance to deny a claim if misfortune comes of
this misapplication. Having separate grounds is also bad engineering
and bad noise control. In short, there is no good reason to do it
when it needs to be done right.

What you have the potential for are problems called "ground loops."
Closing or breaking those loops is what brings those problems. There
was a thread in the last week with excellent links to how to do it
right. I don't have them at hand right now, but you should research
or prod me for more.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"zeno" wrote in message ...
Walking around using an old RatShack portable short wave radio I was able
to track down an unusual noise source (an incessant clicking that was all
over 40-160m. I was able to aim the portable antenna at various wires
while walking around. This particular noise turned out to be someone's
bad telephone. When the telephone was disconnected, this loud
click-click-click disappeared. Seems like that bad telephone was somehow
"transmitting" this noise back through the phone lines.

Admittedly the noise from the power lines here are much more difficult to
pin down and seems to change with the weather. It can be very annoying
and discouraging. There is a high voltage transformer right here next to
the house, which means those hv lines are coming right down my driveway.
Designing an antenna which is not even close to parallel to these power
lines has helped somewhat. I am hoping the new 160m full wave loop which
will be further away is going to be a big improvement. I am just hoping
that the ladder line feed to this loop will not also pick up the noise.
If so I will have to change that feedline to coax which will be a
compromise.

Impoving my RF ground and making sure it was totally independent from the
A.C. safety ground at the house main has helped also. My primary RF
ground cable goes through a hole in the floor at the station and
immediately to a copper pipe driven in under the house. This first run is
shorter than 6'. This first copper pipe is then tied to several others at
about 10' apart to make up for the fact that they are only driven 5' into
the ground. Make sure your RF ground is independent of the house AC
safety ground. I also use a constant voltage transformer and a good power
conditioner because the AC here is a mess.

-bill


Hi Bill,

Isolating RF ground from AC ground may be a solution in your individual
circumstance, but it is not recommended or safe under normal conditions.
Single Point Common Ground means what it says and nothing is "isolated".
That begs for problems not the least of which is ground loops.

I do exactly the same thing under my shack WRT multiple RF ground rods as
you have and a very short drop to them as well - that elminates the chance
for 1/4 wave multiples in the ground sytem to raise the impedance
drastically. But according to best available practices and electrical code
everything (antenna ground rods, RF ground rods, and service-mains ground
rod) are all tied together. Understand that this in no way contributes in
any way to "noise" in the receivers, and it can reduce noise significantly.
It also helps minimize lightning damage, at least according to all the
codes, writings, and many experts in this group.

73's

Jack
Virginia Beach

OK, I guess I have to do more thinking about this, even though my head is
already totally spinning from the fact that there seems to be blatant
discrepancies between expert opinions out there. I am new to this ng and have
much to learn.

I am not sure who to believe at this point.

The book says "one common ground", AC safety AND RF, all one thing. This seems
to be what is being advised here as well. This seems to be consistent with
building codes. That is the "law", the politically correct physics, and what
one needs to say in print or be liable, etc.

Then I turn around, and experienced hams are telling me the exact opposite, eg.
not to tie the RF ground to the house AC safety ground. To tie the RF ground to
the house safety ground rod means a much longer run and thus the potential
problems of 1/4 wavelength resonance also mentioned here.

By the way, I am using an older Kenwood TS530S (until I get some experience and
decide to invest in a more current rig). Are current rigs now always with three
pronged polarized/grounded plugs? My unit here has a two prong non-polarized ac
plug, just like the old audio tube amps I still use for hi-fi.

This whole "ground" thing and its history is quite mysterious, controversial,
and confusing to say the least.


In 1953 when I was first a novice, I used a bizarre little homemade transmitter
with one 117N7 tube which only plugged into one side of the house current!!!!
and then used an earth ground and antenna. I am, in retrospect, amazed I am
here and alive to tell the story.

Where is Tesla when we need him......



Just curious, if I were to take a light bulb and connect ONE terminal to the
hot side of an ac house outlet and then connect the other terminal to a ground
rod driven into the ground in the middle of a forest somewhere where trees fall
without anyone there to hear them, will the light bulb light up?

bill (feeling a bit ungrounded at the moment.....)


Jack Painter wrote:

"zeno" wrote in message ...
Walking around using an old RatShack portable short wave radio I was able
to track down an unusual noise source (an incessant clicking that was all
over 40-160m. I was able to aim the portable antenna at various wires
while walking around. This particular noise turned out to be someone's
bad telephone. When the telephone was disconnected, this loud
click-click-click disappeared. Seems like that bad telephone was somehow
"transmitting" this noise back through the phone lines.

Admittedly the noise from the power lines here are much more difficult to
pin down and seems to change with the weather. It can be very annoying
and discouraging. There is a high voltage transformer right here next to
the house, which means those hv lines are coming right down my driveway.
Designing an antenna which is not even close to parallel to these power
lines has helped somewhat. I am hoping the new 160m full wave loop which
will be further away is going to be a big improvement. I am just hoping
that the ladder line feed to this loop will not also pick up the noise.
If so I will have to change that feedline to coax which will be a
compromise.

Impoving my RF ground and making sure it was totally independent from the
A.C. safety ground at the house main has helped also. My primary RF
ground cable goes through a hole in the floor at the station and
immediately to a copper pipe driven in under the house. This first run is
shorter than 6'. This first copper pipe is then tied to several others at
about 10' apart to make up for the fact that they are only driven 5' into
the ground. Make sure your RF ground is independent of the house AC
safety ground. I also use a constant voltage transformer and a good power
conditioner because the AC here is a mess.

-bill

Hi Bill,

Isolating RF ground from AC ground may be a solution in your individual
circumstance, but it is not recommended or safe under normal conditions.
Single Point Common Ground means what it says and nothing is "isolated".
That begs for problems not the least of which is ground loops.

I do exactly the same thing under my shack WRT multiple RF ground rods as
you have and a very short drop to them as well - that elminates the chance
for 1/4 wave multiples in the ground sytem to raise the impedance
drastically. But according to best available practices and electrical code
everything (antenna ground rods, RF ground rods, and service-mains ground
rod) are all tied together. Understand that this in no way contributes in
any way to "noise" in the receivers, and it can reduce noise significantly.
It also helps minimize lightning damage, at least according to all the
codes, writings, and many experts in this group.

73's

Jack
Virginia Beach

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:42:44 GMT, zeno wrote:

Hi Bill,

By the points offered:

Then I turn around, and experienced hams are telling me the exact opposite, eg.
not to tie the RF ground to the house AC safety ground.

Experienced Amateurs (as distinct from experienced Professionals).

To tie the RF ground to
the house safety ground rod means a much longer run and thus the potential
problems of 1/4 wavelength resonance also mentioned here.

The basic confusion that arises is in the distinction between RF and
Mains ground. You can keep your RF ground rod (add some radials to it
to actually make it RF ground) as long as you tie it to the Mains
ground (usually in close proximity to the drop and meter). The
distance between THESE two points is immaterial RF wise as your RF
ground will insure little or no RF current travels to the Mains
ground. In THIS sense, they are separate.

If there is noise (RF) on the Mains, it may seek your RF ground
through this connection, but as long as you are not sharing it (you
are not using this lead to both connect your equipment AND connect the
two grounds) then there will be no problem.

You should have a lead from your equipment to the RF ground and THEN
to the Mains ground (two paths, one conductor) in that order:

MAINSGROUND-------------RFGROUND------------SHACK GOOD
MAINSGROUND----------SHACK-----------RFGROUND BAD

By the way, I am using an older Kenwood TS530S (until I get some experience and
decide to invest in a more current rig). Are current rigs now always with three
pronged polarized/grounded plugs? My unit here has a two prong non-polarized ac
plug, just like the old audio tube amps I still use for hi-fi.

Most rigs aren't AC powered at all - they require 13.6VDC that comes
from an AC powered DC supply. AC power is floating with a
Hot/Neutral. Neutral eventually finds ground but you are in jeopardy
of relying on that. Ground, the third wire, is a safety consideration
and is never expected to conduct current except as a consequence of
failure. Modern construction practices and code certainly mandates a
thick enough conductor, but not for the purpose of supporting power
needs.

In 1953 when I was first a novice, I used a bizarre little homemade transmitter
with one 117N7 tube which only plugged into one side of the house current!!!!

This is also from an era when newspapers reported the passing of
husbands or wives who, while washing the dishes, leaning on the stove,
playing with the toaster, putting down the iron, turning off the
mixer, or holding the refrigerator door.... leaned over to turn down
the radio volume - classic across the heart scenario - classic
results.

They were killed by "modern" engineering design techniques to reduce
noise (caps across the mains to the metal frame). Let's see, is it
suppose to plug in this way, or was it the oth.*#!!**#.....

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I think this is starting to make sense, maybe. My RF ground rod which is directly
under the station about 6' directly down, also ties to a series of additional rods
about 10 feet apart in both directions from that first rod (I am thinking this is
like a radial since the bare wire connecting them is also on the earth (?). Should
I connect the furthest rod of this series to the house mains ground rod which is
actually not that far away at that point? Would I be ok then?

-bill




Richard Clark wrote:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:42:44 GMT, zeno wrote:

Hi Bill,

By the points offered:

Then I turn around, and experienced hams are telling me the exact opposite, eg.
not to tie the RF ground to the house AC safety ground.

Experienced Amateurs (as distinct from experienced Professionals).

To tie the RF ground to
the house safety ground rod means a much longer run and thus the potential
problems of 1/4 wavelength resonance also mentioned here.

The basic confusion that arises is in the distinction between RF and
Mains ground. You can keep your RF ground rod (add some radials to it
to actually make it RF ground) as long as you tie it to the Mains
ground (usually in close proximity to the drop and meter). The
distance between THESE two points is immaterial RF wise as your RF
ground will insure little or no RF current travels to the Mains
ground. In THIS sense, they are separate.

If there is noise (RF) on the Mains, it may seek your RF ground
through this connection, but as long as you are not sharing it (you
are not using this lead to both connect your equipment AND connect the
two grounds) then there will be no problem.

You should have a lead from your equipment to the RF ground and THEN
to the Mains ground (two paths, one conductor) in that order:

MAINSGROUND-------------RFGROUND------------SHACK GOOD
MAINSGROUND----------SHACK-----------RFGROUND BAD

By the way, I am using an older Kenwood TS530S (until I get some experience and
decide to invest in a more current rig). Are current rigs now always with three
pronged polarized/grounded plugs? My unit here has a two prong non-polarized ac
plug, just like the old audio tube amps I still use for hi-fi.

Most rigs aren't AC powered at all - they require 13.6VDC that comes
from an AC powered DC supply. AC power is floating with a
Hot/Neutral. Neutral eventually finds ground but you are in jeopardy
of relying on that. Ground, the third wire, is a safety consideration
and is never expected to conduct current except as a consequence of
failure. Modern construction practices and code certainly mandates a
thick enough conductor, but not for the purpose of supporting power
needs.

In 1953 when I was first a novice, I used a bizarre little homemade transmitter
with one 117N7 tube which only plugged into one side of the house current!!!!

This is also from an era when newspapers reported the passing of
husbands or wives who, while washing the dishes, leaning on the stove,
playing with the toaster, putting down the iron, turning off the
mixer, or holding the refrigerator door.... leaned over to turn down
the radio volume - classic across the heart scenario - classic
results.

They were killed by "modern" engineering design techniques to reduce
noise (caps across the mains to the metal frame). Let's see, is it
suppose to plug in this way, or was it the oth.*#!!**#.....

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:15:21 GMT, zeno wrote:

I think this is starting to make sense, maybe. My RF ground rod which is directly
under the station about 6' directly down, also ties to a series of additional rods
about 10 feet apart in both directions from that first rod (I am thinking this is
like a radial since the bare wire connecting them is also on the earth (?).

Hi Bill,

The additional ground rods don't do much, RF-wise. You are far better
off with wire laid out radially on or just below the ground surface.
However, what you have is good.

Should I connect the furthest rod of this series to the house mains ground rod which is
actually not that far away at that point? Would I be ok then?

Depends on what you mean by furthest, but it sounds OK. Look at my
answer in the other post.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:


MAINSGROUND-------------RFGROUND------------SHACK GOOD
MAINSGROUND----------SHACK-----------RFGROUND BAD

I may still be confused here, not really fuly comprehending the above illustration.

The mainsground comes to the shack anyway in the AC outlets powering the shack,
being the third or ground terminal (although not really connecting to my Kenwood
530 which in this unique case only has a two prong AC plug and internal power
suppy.

I think this ground thing has to do with the "routing" as you indicate, just as the
mystery of ground loops in an old tube hi-fi amp where the correct star grounding
is the way to get rid of hum. As long as my shack RF ground is a short direct route
to the first ground rod of the series, I should be ok then tying the mains ground
to a "later" point in the RF ground rod system. (?)

bill