On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote:

I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at
Google. The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one
result: your post using the phrase.

Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". We have an
Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all
under the Dept of Defense. Each have their own policies for handling
patents. For example:

Office of the Judge Advocate General
Department of the Army
Intellectual Property Office
Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division
901 North Stuart
Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837.

Basically a patent attorney. It's possible that Art talked to one of
them.

www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/p27_11.pdf
Looks old, but interesting.

I ask because the military doesn't buy from individuals. It buys from
companies.

True. However all the branches will license patents from individuals.
If they want something manufactured by a 3rd party, and they need a
patent, they will arrange for licensing (or confiscation in case of
need or secrecy). I don't wanna get into technology transfers and
royalties.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote:

I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at
Google. The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one
result: your post using the phrase.

Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". We have an
Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all
under the Dept of Defense. Each have their own policies for handling
patents. For example:

Office of the Judge Advocate General
Department of the Army
Intellectual Property Office
Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division
901 North Stuart
Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837.

Basically a patent attorney. It's possible that Art talked to one of
them.

Not unless it was at a bar and Art was buying.

A military attorney is not going to be talking to a civilian off the street.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Ralph E Lindberg wrote:

I can't think of a single patent where I work has applied for that was
classified (hint, US Navy R&E). I strongly doubt that anyone would seek
any patent that had classified details.

In industry, one uses patents and trade secrets to protect intelectual
property. Patents have to be written in such a way that someone "skilled in
the art" can duplicate the idea.

I'm not sure of the current state of US patent law, but in general it was
intended that someone would read a patent, build the device and improve it.
The improvement would be a deriviative work or it may be something new.

In either case, the original work, or a derivative work would be the exclusive
property of the owner of the patent for a length of time, now 20 years from
first publication or date of filing (whichever is earlier) in the US, and 21
years in the rest of the world.

Trade secrets are different, they rely on things that have never been revealed.
For example, the formula for WD-40, Coka Cola, or KFC breading. KFC is an
interesting combination, the process was patented, the formula was not.

So you can duplicate KFC chicken at home and now that the patent has run out
in your restaurant in theory, but in practice, you can't because you don't
know for sure what the ingredients and their proportions are in the breading.

There quite simply is no need to seek a patent with classified details. It's
similar to a trade secret, but instead of contracts and ethics protecting it,
the secrecy of it is protected by law.

There is also a law going back to the time of Lincoln administration about
developing things under government contract, patenting them and then dedicating
the patent to the people of the US. There is a big tax advantage, if it
interests you, look up the details.

As far as radios are concerned, one could have patented a transformer
consisting of a toriodal core of powdered iron and other materials (aka ferite)
without revealing the other materials.

If that had been a "secret" invention, then others could duplicate the device
but without the formula for the exact compostition of the core, no one would
get the results you did. That's a two edged sword, they may be better at it. :-)

Note that this is just an example, I really have no idea of who invented the
toroid transformer.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

Ralph E Lindberg wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote:

I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at
Google. The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one
result: your post using the phrase.

Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". We have an
Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all
under the Dept of Defense. Each have their own policies for handling
patents. For example:

Office of the Judge Advocate General
Department of the Army
Intellectual Property Office
Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division
901 North Stuart
Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837.

Basically a patent attorney. It's possible that Art talked to one of
them.

Not unless it was at a bar and Art was buying.

A military attorney is not going to be talking to a civilian off the street.

I know the one where I work does talk with an employees about a personal
patent. But not help/work with the actually application

To be expected and employees aren't coming in off the street.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Aug 31, 9:30*am, wrote:
Ralph E Lindberg wrote:



In article ,
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:19:32 -0700, "Sal M. Onella"
wrote:

I ask because the phrase "military patent attorney" produced no results at
Google. *The phrase "patent attorney for the military " produces exactly one
result: *your post using the phrase.

Last time I checked, we don't have a single "military". *We have an
Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, and some other organizations, all
under the Dept of Defense. *Each have their own policies for handling
patents. *For example:

*Office of the Judge Advocate General
*Department of the Army
*Intellectual Property Office
*Regulatory Law and Intellectual Property Division
*901 North Stuart
*Street, Arlington, VA 22203-1837.

Basically a patent attorney. *It's possible that Art talked to one of
them.

Not unless it was at a bar and Art was buying.

A military attorney is not going to be talking to a civilian off the street.

I know the one where I work does talk with an employees about a personal
patent. But not help/work with the actually application

To be expected and employees aren't coming in off the street.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Many Universities have near to them a quasi military funded work group
that employ some of the graduates of Universities especially in the
computer area.
The funding by the military is for different projects that they have.
These units
are monitored by patent personnel a couple of times a year where
information is gathered
for patent potential.Usually they do mundane computer work but there
are exceptions and there is some turn over as the graduates leave for
new found jobs. There are at least two such units that are in driving
distance from me that I know of and there may be more as there are
many Universities close to me.
I never said I consulted him or asked for assistance.
In these sort of discussions in this group small things grow so large
that they have a life of their own that often stray from the truth.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:45:06 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for your difficulties with the USPTO, I have no idea what you're
talking about. If you need help obtaining a patent, the very last
place I would ask is the military. All their patents tend to become
classified, even if they're trivial.

I can't think of a single patent where I work has applied for that was
classified (hint, US Navy R&E). I strongly doubt that anyone would seek
any patent that had classified details.

I beg to differ. There are over 4000 classified patents, 88 of which
are by the US Navy:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html
(Note the classification of patents of private inventors). In FY08,
the Navy apparently applied for 8 classified patents. Obvious, I have
no clue what they were for.

Mo
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxr_5_1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act

Drivel: I sorta blundered across this one. The patent is fully
disclosed, but the title is "classified":
http://www.google.com/patents?id=kG-oAAAAEBAJ&dq=2008/0047450
Oops.

Unless your patent has some
obvious military significance,

Or has some impact on any military related industrial application

Some horror stories where key commercial technologies somehow get
classified. From 2002:
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/vesprman.htm
"As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number
of 'secretized' patents in the vault at the Patent Office
(Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They [applicants]
never receive a patent number, and the inventor is rarely,
if ever, compensated by the government for use of the
invention."



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/vesprman.htm
"As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number
of 'secretized' patents in the vault at the Patent Office
(Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They [applicants]
never receive a patent number, and the inventor is rarely,
if ever, compensated by the government for use of the
invention."

That's an interesting question. Normally an inventor is not compensated for
the use of their invention, as it were, by an employer. In most cases the
employer owns the research it funded and the results (including patents)
of that research.

Quite often the payment for a patent was one dollar. The late father of a
late friend of mine was one of the inventors on 18 patents filed by RCA,
9 of which he was the principal inventor. From what I remember he received
besides his regular salary, an offical payment of $1 for the rights to each
of them, and a nice little plaque for his wall.

In some exceptional cases, usually where the inventor is a noted expert
in the field before employment they negotiated different terms. There were
also independent inventors who filed "invention disclosures" and then
attempted to sell the invention to investors or companies in the field.

This has pretty much disapeared in the US as people now file provisional
patent applications and market those. The problem of this system is that
abandoned provisional patent applications become public domain when they
expire (one year after first publication or filing, whichever is earlier)
and invention disclosures, never being publicised could go on forever.

The other question I have is if a patent is filled and never publicised,
how does one know it exists? If someone else invents the idea (actually very
common) and files a patent are they refused? Are they sued for infringment?

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

On Aug 31, 12:09*pm, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/vesprman.htm
* "As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number
* of 'secretized' patents in the vault at the Patent Office
* (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They [applicants]
* never receive a patent number, and the inventor is rarely,
* if ever, compensated by the government for use of the
* invention."

That's an interesting question. Normally an inventor is not compensated for
the use of their invention, as it were, by an employer. In most cases the
employer owns the research it funded and the results (including patents)
of that research.

Quite often the payment for a patent was one dollar. The late father of a
late friend of mine was one of the inventors on 18 patents filed by RCA,
9 of which he was the principal inventor. From what I remember he received
besides his regular salary, an offical payment of $1 for the rights to each
of them, and a nice little plaque for his wall.

In some exceptional cases, usually where the inventor is a noted expert
in the field before employment they negotiated different terms. There were
also independent inventors who filed "invention disclosures" and then
attempted to sell the invention to investors or companies in the field.

This has pretty much disapeared in the US as people now file provisional
patent applications and market those. The problem of this system is that
abandoned provisional patent applications become public domain when they
expire (one year after first publication or filing, whichever is earlier)
and invention disclosures, never being publicised could go on forever.

The other question I have is if a patent is filled and never publicised,
how does one know it exists? If someone else invents the idea (actually very
common) and files a patent are they refused? Are they sued for infringment?

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel *N3OWJ/4X1GM

Wow ! You are way out of date with respect to PTO procedures on so
many things.
The main thing is patents have stopped going on for ever. The primary
change you have
that affects patents today is that patent request are pre printed for
the public before they ever reach an examiner. If I understand
correctly not receiving a patent leaves your request as a free for all
in terms of use. The courts have now put more power in the examiners
hands and are less interested in cases challenging the aproved claims.
For your interest antennas have come to the fore because Chip has sued
many cell phone manufacturers for knowingly using Fractal patents. It
will be interesting to see how the courts handle this in the light of
the many patent changes. You are now seeing more generic drugs over
the counter as drug patents are not being extended for minor changes.
Thus drug companies are using other methods to preserve their
interests via import rules to stop generic drugs coming in from other
Countries covered by the world patent office org of which the U.S. is
part. This does not include Peurto Rico where many U.S. drugs are
manufactured today

Art Unwin wrote:
Wow ! You are way out of date with respect to PTO procedures on so
many things.
The main thing is patents have stopped going on for ever. The primary
change you have
that affects patents today is that patent request are pre printed for
the public before they ever reach an examiner.

Well not really. First of all an invention disclosure could go on forever
as I said because it all is based upon date of filing, or if nothing is filed,
date of first publication. If a person submits an invention disclosure to
an investor or prospective purchaser that is done with an agreement of
confidentiality, not publication.

Therefore an invention disclosure not being filed with the USPTO, or publicized
is not limited by the one year limitiation.

In the US, patent applications are published immediately. The USPTO has a
short period to reject applciations out of hand, and if they do not they
can be published as soon as the USPTO can, which I know is kind of vague.
However, you may request that the application is kept confidental until
18 months from date of application.

In the current environment, applications will be seen by an examiner in
around 18 months, so it may or may not be the case. It depends upon the
queue.

If I understand
correctly not receiving a patent leaves your request as a free for all
in terms of use.

Yes. However you have a year to appeal a final rejection.


The courts have now put more power in the examiners
hands and are less interested in cases challenging the aproved claims.

I can't say anything about that, I have never dealt with the courts.


For your interest antennas have come to the fore because Chip has sued
many cell phone manufacturers for knowingly using Fractal patents. It
will be interesting to see how the courts handle this in the light of
the many patent changes.

Yes. In this case it may depend more upon the quality of legal representation
and the authors of the original patent applications. If Chip's patent
applications were written well, he may be able to prove infringment. If they
were not, then the likelyhood of him getting anything is small.

It would depend, IMHO on Chip's lawyers making them feel he is being
vicitimized by the big bad cellular companies, or the companies making
them feel he is a crackpot inventor who patented something similar, but
not the close enough for them to pay him.

I've read an article foisted upon me about software patents that claimed they
were bad because judges were unable to understand them. IMHO bad judges do
not mean the whole system should be thrown out. I also expect that if the case
were to go before a jury, it would be next to impossible to convince them of
anything on a technical basis.

I was then told that I should read the paper's authors book, but to me
it seemed ironic (and stupid) to pay $22.50 and postage to be told that
my ideas should be free, while theirs were not.

You are now seeing more generic drugs over
the counter as drug patents are not being extended for minor changes.
Thus drug companies are using other methods to preserve their
interests via import rules to stop generic drugs coming in from other
Countries covered by the world patent office org of which the U.S. is
part. This does not include Peurto Rico where many U.S. drugs are
manufactured today

That's a special case. Most generic drugs come from Israel, which follows
FDA regulations and respects international patents, and India which does
not. Indira Gandi was presented the case that drug patents were racist,
because they prevented brown (Indian) people from buying drugs sold by
price-gouging white people (ICL in specific).

She allowed that the process could be patented, but not the product
itself, allowing Indian manufacturers to make generic drugs without
using the approved processes, and not subject to any quality control or
testing.

WIRED did an excelent article about it a few years ago. If you want more
information, I suggest you look it up.

As for Puerto Rico, it is part of the US, and since the 1970's has
become a haven for drug manufacturers because of the low taxes. The FDA
was (is?) loath to approve drugs which they can not supervise the
manufacture of, which they can do in Peurto Rico, but not in other countries.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 18:44:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

For some odd reason, I can't see the five attached figures. Probably
my fault (or Quicktime).

Here's a copy of the patent application, with the figures included:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/11-655899.pdf

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558