Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I believe that
the French
didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed.
Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with
sometimes disastrous results.

I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-)

A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater
amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does
a point at the top. Therefo

Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Can't think of any valid reason why either design
should be able to avoid the really big one.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

In message , Cecil Moore
writes
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I
believe that the French
didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed.
Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with
sometimes disastrous results.

I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-)

A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater
amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does
a point at the top. Therefo

Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Did you mean 'higher'?

Can't think of any valid reason why either design
should be able to avoid the really big one.

Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous
discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up
and up, until there is a big 'splat'?
--
Ian

Ian Jackson wrote:
Cecil Moore writes
Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Did you mean 'higher'?

Two people separated by a common language? :-)

Allow me to rephrase: When the voltages are low,
the ball will tend to discourage the lightning
strikes because the voltage may be too low to
achieve the ionizing threshold potential
surrounding the ball.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Oct 23, 2:48*pm, Ian Jackson
wrote:
In message , Cecil Moore
writes

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I
believe that the French
didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed.
Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with
sometimes disastrous results.

I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-)

A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater
amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does
a point at the top. Therefo

Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Did you mean 'higher'?

Can't think of any valid reason why either design
should be able to avoid the really big one.

Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous
discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up
and up, until there is a big 'splat'?
--
Ian

In the end, that's about the way I see it, but I consider
any discharge by either to really be fairly irrelevant.
Trying to avoid strikes by discharge is like whizzing in
a whirlwind. :/
The sharp point streams much easier than the ball,
so the chances of streaming and connected to a down
leader are much greater than with a ball which will
resists streaming at those same potentials.
If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike
would be struck most of the time. You need a good
streamer going to lure a down leader.
But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up
high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a
a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming
of the smooth ball.
Both masts should be well grounded.
It's not an accident that most lightning rods have
a sharp point, the same way as most flag poles
have a round ball on top.
One is designed to stream as well as possible in
order to become a more likely target than what it
protects, and the other is designed to stream poorly
to resist strikes compared to the other better streaming
objects near it.
No streamer, no cloud to ground lightning at that
point on the earth. BTW, I've got pictures of streamers.
You can see them at night, and they bend and point to
the down leader as it approaches the earth.
The first one it can connect to forms the final path to
ground, and I think this is in the last 150 yards or so
if I remember right. The leader traveling in appx 150
yard or so steps through the sky.

wrote
...
On Oct 23, 2:48 pm, Ian Jackson
wrote:
In message , Cecil Moore
writes

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I
believe that the French
didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed.
Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with
sometimes disastrous results.

I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-)

A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater
amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does
a point at the top. Therefo

Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Did you mean 'higher'?

Can't think of any valid reason why either design
should be able to avoid the really big one.

Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous
discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up
and up, until there is a big 'splat'?
--
Ian

In the end, that's about the way I see it, but I consider
any discharge by either to really be fairly irrelevant.
Trying to avoid strikes by discharge is like whizzing in
a whirlwind. :/
The sharp point streams much easier than the ball,
so the chances of streaming and connected to a down
leader

No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if
the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next they
jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of
oscillations. Lightnings produce LW.

are much greater than with a ball which will
resists streaming at those same potentials.
If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike
would be struck most of the time.

We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know?

You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader.
But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up
high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a
a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming
of the smooth ball.

The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease it.

Both masts should be well grounded.
It's not an accident that most lightning rods have
a sharp point, the same way as most flag poles
have a round ball on top.

Is the ball grounded?

One is designed to stream as well as possible in
order to become a more likely target than what it
protects, and the other is designed to stream poorly
to resist strikes compared to the other better streaming
objects near it.

Lightning (electrons) strike the Earth. Grounded ball has the voltage like
the Earth. Nongrounded like the air. Such are neutral. Does not prevent and
not catch. But may be attacked like all.

No streamer, no cloud to ground lightning at that
point on the earth. BTW, I've got pictures of streamers.
You can see them at night, and they bend and point to
the down leader as it approaches the earth.
The first one it can connect to forms the final path to
ground, and I think this is in the last 150 yards or so
if I remember right. The leader traveling in appx 150
yard or so steps through the sky.

The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps
are longest.
S*

On Oct 24, 8:49*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
...
On Oct 23, 2:48 pm, Ian Jackson





wrote:
In message , Cecil Moore
writes

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It is a history: "In the early days of lightning conductors, I
believe that the French
didn't like the nasty pointy things which the British had installed.
Instead, they decorated theirs with fancy balls at the top - with
sometimes disastrous results.

I assume a certain biased reporting of anecdotal evidence.:-)

A ball at the top hat of a Tesla coil allows a greater
amplitude of voltage to build up before arcing than does
a point at the top. Therefo

Points should result in more lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Balls should result in fewer lightning strikes at lower
voltages.

Did you mean 'higher'?

Can't think of any valid reason why either design
should be able to avoid the really big one.

Surely, when lightning is about, points allow an essentially continuous
discharge at a low current, while balls allow the voltage to build up
and up, until there is a big 'splat'?
--
Ian
In the end, that's about the way I see it, but I consider

any discharge by either to really be fairly irrelevant.
Trying to avoid strikes by discharge is like whizzing in
a whirlwind. *:/
The sharp point streams much easier than the ball,
so the chances of streaming and connected to a down
leader

No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if
the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next they
jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of
oscillations. Lightnings produce LW.


yes, there are downward leaders. these can be tracked either by their
radio noise or by radar. the size and step process has been well
known for many years.

are much greater than with a ball which will

resists streaming at those same potentials.
If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike
would be struck most of the time.


and you think wrong.

We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know?

yes, but not you.


You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader.

But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up
high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a
a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming
of the smooth ball.

The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease it.

no they don't. they provide a better place for streamers to start
because the sharp point increases the voltage gradient helping it to
stream sooner.


The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last steps
are longest.

there are no oscillation in the step process. and there is no
evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen.

"Dave" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Oct 24, 8:49 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

...


The sharp point streams much easier than the ball,
so the chances of streaming and connected to a down
leader

No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if
the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next
they
jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of
oscillations. Lightnings produce LW.


yes, there are downward leaders. these can be tracked either by their
radio noise or by radar. the size and step process has been well
known for many years.

But the upwards liders are also possible. If downward lider oscillate close
the high metal tower the electrons in the metal also oscillate and can jump
out. But that are details.


are much greater than with a ball which will

resists streaming at those same potentials.
If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike
would be struck most of the time.


and you think wrong.

We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know?

yes, but not you.

But I agre with you. Nm5k wrote the above: : "I would think the spike would
be struck most of the time."


You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader.

But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up
high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a
a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming
of the smooth ball.

The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease
it.

no they don't. they provide a better place for streamers to start
because the sharp point increases the voltage gradient helping it to
stream sooner.

One sharp point provide a better place for streamers to start, but the
plenty of them decrease the voltage.

The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last
steps
are longest.

there are no oscillation in the step process. and there is no
evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen.

But it is obvious. Each spark is in form of oscillations. No matter if the
"electrods" are steady or the distance is increasing.
It was discovered by observing the tissue punched by the spark (XIX
century).
In nowadays reports no obvious thinks.
S*

On Oct 24, 5:12*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"Dave" napisal w ...
On Oct 24, 8:49 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:


...

The sharp point streams much easier than the ball,
so the chances of streaming and connected to a down
leader

No down lider. Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if
the difference of voltage exists. At first they jump inside cloud. Next
they
jump in the all directions outside cloud. But the all jumps are in form of
oscillations. Lightnings produce LW.

yes, there are downward leaders. *these can be tracked either by their

radio noise or by radar. *the size and step process has been well
known for many years.

But the upwards liders are also possible. If downward lider oscillate close
the high metal tower the electrons in the metal also oscillate and can jump
out. But that are details.

are much greater than with a ball which will

resists streaming at those same potentials.
If you had a spike next to a ball, I would think the spike
would be struck most of the time.

and you think wrong.

We need here the experimental data. Does anybody know?

yes, but not you.

But I agre with you. Nm5k wrote the above: : "I would think the spike *would
be struck most of the time."



You need a good streamer going to lure a down leader.

But a ball can still stream if the potential cranks up
high enough, and the resulting strike can often be a
a stout one if it can overcome the poor streaming
of the smooth ball.

The only cause for spark jump is the voltage difference. Spikes decrease
it.
no they don't. *they provide a better place for streamers to start

because the sharp point increases the voltage gradient helping it to
stream sooner.

One sharp point provide a better place for streamers to start, but the
plenty of them decrease the voltage.



The oscilations start from very short in all directions and the last
steps
are longest.
there are no oscillation in the step process. *and there is no

evidence that the steps change length in any report i have seen.

But it is obvious. Each spark is in form of oscillations. No matter if the
"electrods" are steady or the distance is increasing.
It was discovered by observing the tissue punched by the spark (XIX
century).
In nowadays reports no obvious thinks.
S*

it may be obvious to you, but that doesn't make it true. a spark is
not a form of oscillation. and leaders are not sparks. sparks are a
very specific phenomenon that is a very short lived breakdown over a
short distance. leaders and streamers are long term conductive
channels caused by a channel of charge accumulated in them and are
progressive breakdowns over long distances. The physics are very
different, but in neither are there oscillations. again you go back
to ancient history, it is time you updated your reading list.

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if
the difference of voltage exists.

http://www.sleepingearthed.com/pdf/E...lecSurface.pdf
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Excess of electrons is in the stormcloud and they jumps if the difference
of voltage exists.

http://www.sleepingearthed.com/pdf/E...lecSurface.pdf

This is with the full agreement with me (in fundamentals).
It is not easy to read, with the understanding, the electric schemes
(diagrams).

Look at the page 3. The arrows represent the currents. So the electrons flow
in opposite direction. So in sunny day they migrate up. Very up (18 km at
equator).
The next symbols are the "+" and "-". What they means on this scheme.
Electrons migrate very up, but always on the droplets of water (heavy ions),
so in the air is the excess of electrons if there are the heavy ions. But
what the voltage is there?
You remember: small drops - smal voltage (Kelvin's drops generator). Next
cooling and condensation take place and larger droplets fall down. But on
the larger drops the voltage is higher.
The "+" and "-" on electric schemes are use to indicate the direction of the
current flow. Electrons flow from "-" to "+". No matter how many electrons
is.
But that everywhere in the atmosphere is excess of electrons should be
obvious for you now. You know that on the surface of the Earth is also
always the excess of electrons. But the current flow " if the difference of
voltage exists".

Not elecricians think that "-" indicate the excess of electrons and "+" the
deficit. Such is in physics.
The scheme on the page 3 was drawn by electricians.
Do you agree? (Richard asks: get it?)
S*