Tom Horne wrote:
I am interested in having a rapid set up multi-band vertical for Field
Day and EMCOMM. If I use the Hy-Gain sixty four foot (64') push up
mast as the radiator and an ICOM AH-4 as the automatic antenna tuner
is this likely to be an effective approach to having a rapid set up
multi band vertical?

Yes..
You don't need that much height, though.. the loss in radiation
effectiveness going from 1/4 wavelength (20m long) to 1/8 wavelength
(10m) isn't all that big a deal. It's when you get down to the 1/20th
wavelength and the feedpoint Z gets very wild that you have problems
with loss in the matching network.


Will I need radials? Should they be elevated or
can they lie on the ground?

Yes.. you do need radials. Laying on the ground is just fine. Get some
very flexible stranded insulated wire (the kind with lots of fine
strands is better.) and figure a way to rapidly throw it out and store
without tangling. I've thought about spring return reels.

3 or 4 makes a huge difference over 1 or 2. after that, it's a bit of
diminishing returns.. You'd be better off just doing what the people who
do this for a living (rapid deploy HF comms) do.. jack up the Tx power.

BTW, a better approach than a vertical might be a inverted V dipole from
the top of your 60 foot pole. MUCH better radiation effectiveness
because of H polarization..

Since the total length of the radiator is
less than a 1/4 wave on eighty meters at say 3.6 MHz will that make
the antenna ineffective on eighty meters?

Nope.. it's the loss in the tuning network that's the thing to worry
about.. you could make a lumped matching network to feed with your
autotuner if you're worried..


Second question would four of those sixty four foot masts make an
effective forty meter four square. Yes I realize that it would cost
eight hundred dollars for the masts alone before the cost of
controller, remote, phasing coax, and control cable. Once again would
radials be required for forty meters.

Radials are (almost) always required for verticals. even if you don't
install them, your feedline shield will act as a radial with
unpredictable and usually undesirable effects.

Running a 4 square with autotuners at each element is VERY difficult (if
not impossible).. the tuner changes the phase shift, and the interaction
from the other antennas will screw up the auto adjustment algorithm.



I've only been back in radio for a few years after very long gap so
I'm starting over and finding the learning curve a little steeper than
I remember.
--
Tom Horne, W3TDH

On Apr 8, 1:16*pm, Jim Lux wrote:


BTW, a better approach than a vertical might be a inverted V dipole from
the top of your 60 foot pole. * MUCH better radiation effectiveness
because of H polarization..

Much easier to deal with. You really don't want to have to deal
with radials at a field day. And using an antenna tuner to match
a vertical is not the greatest way to go about it.
Then you have the radiator height issue.. A 64 foot mast is too
tall for most of the higher HF bands. So it's not going to be too
practical for multi band use unless it's only for the lower bands.
Heck, it's slightly tall even to be a 5/8 wave on 30m...
It's going to be fairly useless as a vertical on 20m and up..
High angle lobes..

If it were me, I'd use the mast to support dipoles for each band
to be used. I feed them all with a single coax and spread the
legs apart at right angles to minimize interaction.
Or one could use a multi band dipole of some type.
One method I used to use camping was the "jumper"
dipole. IE: I'd run a 80m length dipole, but have insulators
breaking it up into higher band dipoles. For 80m, they would
all have jumpers across them.
For higher bands, you would use remove the jumper across the
insulator to shorten the length.
But I prefer the parallel dipoles for FD use, and I almost always
have enough room to do it. That way I have instant band changing
with no retuning, fiddling, etc..
If I were to use a vertical for all bands, I'd probably go with some
type of elevated 1/2 wave design that didn't require radials.
But except for far off DX, I would prefer the dipoles.
The bulk of FD contacts are not going to be DX on the lower
bands. You would be better served with the NVIS pattern of a
dipole on 40, 80 meters. An 80 or 40 meter dipole will work quite
well if supported at 60 ft at the apex. Really doesn't have to be that
high, but if you can get them up to 60 ft, they will work well.
Even to most DX.

On Apr 8, 2:16*pm, Jim Lux wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:
I am interested in having a rapid set up multi-band vertical for Field
Day and EMCOMM. *If I use the Hy-Gain sixty four foot (64') push up
mast as the radiator and an ICOM AH-4 as the automatic antenna tuner
is this likely to be an effective approach to having a rapid set up
multi band vertical?

Yes..
You don't need that much height, though.. the loss in radiation
effectiveness going from 1/4 wavelength (20m long) to 1/8 wavelength
(10m) isn't all that big a deal. *It's when you get down to the 1/20th
wavelength and the feedpoint Z gets very wild that you have problems
with loss in the matching network.

* Will I need radials? *Should they be elevated or

can they lie on the ground? *

Yes.. you do need radials. *Laying on the ground is just fine. *Get some
very flexible stranded insulated wire (the kind with lots of fine
strands is better.) and figure a way to rapidly throw it out and store
without tangling. I've thought about spring return reels.

3 or 4 makes a huge difference over 1 or 2. *after that, it's a bit of
diminishing returns.. You'd be better off just doing what the people who
do this for a living (rapid deploy HF comms) do.. jack up the Tx power.

BTW, a better approach than a vertical might be a inverted V dipole from
the top of your 60 foot pole. * MUCH better radiation effectiveness
because of H polarization..

Since the total length of the radiator is

less than a 1/4 wave on eighty meters at say 3.6 MHz will that make
the antenna ineffective on eighty meters?

Nope.. it's the loss in the tuning network that's the thing to worry
about.. you could make a lumped matching network to feed with your
autotuner if you're worried..



Second question would four of those sixty four foot masts make an
effective forty meter four square. *Yes I realize that it would cost
eight hundred dollars for the masts alone before the cost of
controller, remote, phasing coax, and control cable. *Once again would
radials be required for forty meters.

Radials are (almost) always required for verticals. even if you don't
install them, your feedline shield will act as a radial with
unpredictable and usually undesirable effects.

Running a 4 square with autotuners at each element is VERY difficult (if
not impossible).. the tuner changes the phase shift, and the interaction
from the other antennas will screw up the auto adjustment algorithm.



I've only been back in radio for a few years after very long gap so
I'm starting over and finding the learning curve a little steeper than
I remember.
--
Tom Horne, W3TDH

Jim
I had no intention of running a four square with four auto tuners.
Perhaps I should have put that inquiry into a separate posting for the
sake of clarity. We built a four square for field day two years ago.
Because the masts that we had then were only thirty feet high a kind
of capacitance hat was built into the guy lines. We had very good
performance from that four square until a severe thunderstorm
destroyed it. I was wondering if having sixty four foot masts would
allow us to adjust the height to resonance on forty meters so that the
four masts themselves could serve as the elements of the four square.
Since a half wave at 7150 kHz is nearly sixty seven feet I would have
to add three feet worth of additional tubing in order to get a
resonant half wave antenna. I had thought that half wave verticals
did not require a counterpoise was I misinformed? If a counterpoise
is needed it wouldn't be too hard to throw out four radials for each
mast. I was just looking for a quick way to put up a four square and
these aluminum masts seemed like they might fill the bill.
--
Tom Horne

Tom Horne wrote:
On Apr 8, 2:16 pm, Jim Lux wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:
I am interested in having a rapid set up multi-band vertical for Field
Day and EMCOMM. If I use the Hy-Gain sixty four foot (64') push up
mast as the radiator and an ICOM AH-4 as the automatic antenna tuner
is this likely to be an effective approach to having a rapid set up
multi band vertical?
Yes..
You don't need that much height, though.. the loss in radiation
effectiveness going from 1/4 wavelength (20m long) to 1/8 wavelength
(10m) isn't all that big a deal. It's when you get down to the 1/20th
wavelength and the feedpoint Z gets very wild that you have problems
with loss in the matching network.

Will I need radials? Should they be elevated or

can they lie on the ground?
Yes.. you do need radials. Laying on the ground is just fine. Get some
very flexible stranded insulated wire (the kind with lots of fine
strands is better.) and figure a way to rapidly throw it out and store
without tangling. I've thought about spring return reels.

3 or 4 makes a huge difference over 1 or 2. after that, it's a bit of
diminishing returns.. You'd be better off just doing what the people who
do this for a living (rapid deploy HF comms) do.. jack up the Tx power.

BTW, a better approach than a vertical might be a inverted V dipole from
the top of your 60 foot pole. MUCH better radiation effectiveness
because of H polarization..

Since the total length of the radiator is

less than a 1/4 wave on eighty meters at say 3.6 MHz will that make
the antenna ineffective on eighty meters?
Nope.. it's the loss in the tuning network that's the thing to worry
about.. you could make a lumped matching network to feed with your
autotuner if you're worried..



Second question would four of those sixty four foot masts make an
effective forty meter four square. Yes I realize that it would cost
eight hundred dollars for the masts alone before the cost of
controller, remote, phasing coax, and control cable. Once again would
radials be required for forty meters.
Radials are (almost) always required for verticals. even if you don't
install them, your feedline shield will act as a radial with
unpredictable and usually undesirable effects.

Running a 4 square with autotuners at each element is VERY difficult (if
not impossible).. the tuner changes the phase shift, and the interaction
from the other antennas will screw up the auto adjustment algorithm.



I've only been back in radio for a few years after very long gap so
I'm starting over and finding the learning curve a little steeper than
I remember.
--
Tom Horne, W3TDH

Jim
I had no intention of running a four square with four auto tuners.
Perhaps I should have put that inquiry into a separate posting for the
sake of clarity. We built a four square for field day two years ago.
Because the masts that we had then were only thirty feet high a kind
of capacitance hat was built into the guy lines. We had very good
performance from that four square until a severe thunderstorm
destroyed it. I was wondering if having sixty four foot masts would
allow us to adjust the height to resonance on forty meters so that the
four masts themselves could serve as the elements of the four square.
Since a half wave at 7150 kHz is nearly sixty seven feet I would have
to add three feet worth of additional tubing in order to get a
resonant half wave antenna. I had thought that half wave verticals
did not require a counterpoise was I misinformed? If a counterpoise
is needed it wouldn't be too hard to throw out four radials for each
mast. I was just looking for a quick way to put up a four square and
these aluminum masts seemed like they might fill the bill.

Tom, is this a serious exercise here? This is just way too much trouble
for a 40 meter antenna.

Some antennas like the half wave verticals, don't require radials. But
I see a vacillating back and forth between high performance and well,
these verticals, which really aren't High performance.

As for several 64 foot masts, Why not go to one mast and put up a 40
meter beam beam? Add an Amp, and you will rule the air. Although I
wouldn't do that personally, because I would imagine that the idea of
emergency ops is getting set up and running ASAP.


It could be a matter of temperament I guess. You can get most of your
needed performance out of a simple dipole. But if you want to wring the
last drop of performance, I'd have to think the beam would take less
time to set up and perform better than a 4-square. You don't want to
finish installing and tuning just at the time they send everyone home.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Tom Horne wrote:

Jim
I had no intention of running a four square with four auto tuners.
Perhaps I should have put that inquiry into a separate posting for the
sake of clarity. We built a four square for field day two years ago.
Because the masts that we had then were only thirty feet high a kind
of capacitance hat was built into the guy lines. We had very good
performance from that four square until a severe thunderstorm
destroyed it. I was wondering if having sixty four foot masts would
allow us to adjust the height to resonance on forty meters so that the
four masts themselves could serve as the elements of the four square.
Since a half wave at 7150 kHz is nearly sixty seven feet I would have
to add three feet worth of additional tubing in order to get a
resonant half wave antenna. I had thought that half wave verticals
did not require a counterpoise was I misinformed? If a counterpoise
is needed it wouldn't be too hard to throw out four radials for each
mast. I was just looking for a quick way to put up a four square and
these aluminum masts seemed like they might fill the bill.
--
Tom Horne


If you put the feedpoint in the middle of the antenna and run the coax
up the middle of the bottom, and have a really good choke, it might
work. (basically, an elevated half wave dipole) There was such an
antenna scheme for a 4 square in one of the ARRL antenna compendiums (I
think they were doing it for 160m, and had a matching network (mostly
inductance) at the feedpoint to deal with the "electrically short" radiator.

Making it actually work is another story entirely. You've got to have a
pretty good choke, or the feedline starts to be a big part of the
system, and since it's laying on the ground, it's a pretty lossy part of
the system. The bottom half of the antenna is closer to the ground than
the top half, so there's those effects too.

SO, even if you sat at the bottom of the antenna with your antenna
tuning meter and carefully adjusted the matching network at the feed to
get 50 ohms, I don't know that when you set it all up, the phasing will
be right.

It might be close enough.. but the odds of not getting as good a F/B as
you want (e.g. null depth) are pretty good. The phasing isn't so
critical for forward gain (you can be tens of degrees off and not lose
much in forward gain, but that will completely kill your 10dB null)

But just feeding the end of a 1/2 wave wire sticking in the air is
asking for difficulties. Your coax is nominally 50 ohm sort of
impedance, and you'd be end feeding a dipole at a high Z point (a
thousand ohms, maybe).

On Apr 16, 6:16*pm, Jim Lux wrote:


But just feeding the end of a 1/2 wave wire sticking in the air is
asking for difficulties. *Your coax is nominally 50 ohm sort of
impedance, and you'd be end feeding a dipole at a high Z point (a
thousand ohms, maybe).

Feeding it would be fairly easy.. But.. Just because it's a half
wave will not mean that there will be low ground losses if
ground mounted.
You would see less ground loss than a ground mount quarter
wave, but it could still be an issue. Note that most broadcasters
who run half waves, also use a set of half wave radials.
I'd probably rather use 32 ft masts supporting self supporting
32 ft radiators, and use a few sloping radials as radials, and
also to double as guy wires.
That will work fairly well with as few as three radials. More
to be optimum, but this is field day.. :/

wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:16 pm, Jim Lux wrote:

But just feeding the end of a 1/2 wave wire sticking in the air is
asking for difficulties. Your coax is nominally 50 ohm sort of
impedance, and you'd be end feeding a dipole at a high Z point (a
thousand ohms, maybe).

Feeding it would be fairly easy.. But.. Just because it's a half
wave will not mean that there will be low ground losses if
ground mounted.
You would see less ground loss than a ground mount quarter
wave, but it could still be an issue. Note that most broadcasters
who run half waves, also use a set of half wave radials.
I'd probably rather use 32 ft masts supporting self supporting
32 ft radiators, and use a few sloping radials as radials, and
also to double as guy wires.
That will work fairly well with as few as three radials. More
to be optimum, but this is field day.. :/


And would strongly resemble the radiators at WWV...

If you do this, you'd put the AH4 at the join point too. For FD, you
might want to have the bottom 8-10 feet of the guy/radial be an
insulator, so that nobody touches the HV part of the antenna.

On Apr 29, 1:03*pm, Jim Lux wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:16 pm, Jim Lux wrote:

But just feeding the end of a 1/2 wave wire sticking in the air is
asking for difficulties. *Your coax is nominally 50 ohm sort of
impedance, and you'd be end feeding a dipole at a high Z point (a
thousand ohms, maybe).

Feeding it would be fairly easy.. But.. Just because it's a half
wave will not mean that there will be low ground losses if
ground mounted.
You would see less ground loss than a ground mount quarter
wave, but it could still be an issue. Note that most broadcasters
who run half waves, also use a set of half wave radials.
I'd probably rather use 32 ft masts supporting self supporting
32 ft radiators, and use a few sloping radials as radials, and
also to double as guy wires.
That will work fairly well with as few as three radials. More
to be optimum, but this is field day.. * :/

And would strongly resemble the radiators at WWV...

If you do this, you'd put the AH4 at the join point too. *For FD, you
might want to have the bottom 8-10 feet of the guy/radial be an
insulator, so that nobody touches the HV part of the antenna.

It would be above ground level with a 32 ft mast. So that would
be no problem. I've used that antenna here at the house, except
I had the 32 ft radiator on a 36 ft mast. I used four radials and
sloped them down and tied off to trees, fences, whatever..
I would not use the AH4 tuner. No need.. The antenna would
be resonant. It would work pretty well on longer paths at night.
The same antenna can also be used for 17m if you add a
matching coil to use it as a 5/8 wave. I had a 24 volt relay
rigged up at the feed point of mine, and could switch from the
shack.