K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 20, 3:14 pm, "Pete Bertini" wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote in message

...
On May 30, 5:00 pm, You wrote:



In article ,
Robert Smits wrote:
Richard Clark wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:
Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?
Hi Bob,
Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.
Updates will follow this brief announcement.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.
Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be
bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.
Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?
Thanks, Bob
A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.
define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

"Michael Coslo" wrote
...

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.
S*

On Jun 21, 5:24*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Michael Coslo" ...



We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.
S*

no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Michael Coslo"
...

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is
the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.

no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.

The simple radio do not work without the ground:
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/r...ansmitter.html

"Without any connection to an antenna or a good ground connection, the
transmitter will only transmit to a receiver a few inches away. To get
better range, clip the ground wire to a good ground, such as a cold water
pipe, and the antenna to a long wire, like the one we used for the crystal
radio."

Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?

The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"
S*

On Jun 22, 7:44*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"Michael Coslo"
...

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is
the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.
no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.

The simple radio do not work without the ground:http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/r...ansmitter.html

"Without any connection to an antenna or a good ground connection, the
transmitter will only transmit to a receiver a few inches away. To get
better range, clip the ground wire to a good ground, such as a cold water
pipe, and the antenna to a long wire, like the one we used for the crystal
radio."

well, it works as they say it will only go a few inches because the
antenna is probably only a couple inches long at some low frequency...
once you give it a decent antenna it will work much better.



Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?

sure.


The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"
S*

field emission is not likely at amateur power levels.

K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:44 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"Michael Coslo"
...
We should define "ground" while we're at it.
If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is
the
source of them.
The lovers of the TEM will write more.
no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.
The simple radio do not work without the ground:http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/r...ansmitter.html

"Without any connection to an antenna or a good ground connection, the
transmitter will only transmit to a receiver a few inches away. To get
better range, clip the ground wire to a good ground, such as a cold water
pipe, and the antenna to a long wire, like the one we used for the crystal
radio."

well, it works as they say it will only go a few inches because the
antenna is probably only a couple inches long at some low frequency...
once you give it a decent antenna it will work much better.


Having built one of these things or very similar (or more properly, my
tween daughter did)..

Hook a 6-10 foot long piece of wire to each of the clips and stretch
them out and it works pretty well. In my case, we threw a hunk
(precision measurement.. probably about 10 ft) of wire over the curtain
rod, and laid the other one out across the floor, transmitter sitting on
the desk. You could receive it on a standard AM BC radio with a ferrite
loopstick antenna at the other end of the house, some 15m/50 ft away.

The idea of using a 1MHz clock oscillator *is* clever. Back in the day,
I would have lashed up something with a single transistor and a LC tank.

BTW, the same general idea works pretty well with a 14.318 MHz
oscillator.. A 1 meter antenna makes a fine beacon signal right in the
20m band. Of course, you'll ID, operate within your license terms, etc.
In theory, if you could get it to swing 5V, you could put a couple
hundred milliwatts into a dipole, but I don't think they have that much
drive available.

I confess I haven't tried AM with the 14.318 oscillator..It probably has
some non-zero frequency pulling too.

Uzytkownik "Jim Lux" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"Michael Coslo"
...
We should define "ground" while we're at it.
If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground
is
the
source of them.

Having built one of these things or very similar (or more properly, my
tween daughter did)..

Hook a 6-10 foot long piece of wire to each of the clips and stretch them
out and it works pretty well. In my case, we threw a hunk (precision
measurement.. probably about 10 ft) of wire over the curtain rod, and laid
the other one out across the floor, transmitter sitting on the desk.

The "other one out across the floor" works as the chassis.
The chassis is enough for the small power at higher frequencies.
Your phone cell has the chssis (ground) also.
S*

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 22, 7:44 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?

sure.


The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can
happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"

field emission is not likely at amateur power levels.

" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".

So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote

So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*


No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

On Jun 23, 8:12*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 22, 7:44 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?
sure.

The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can
happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"
field emission is not likely at amateur power levels.

" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".


no they don't... those types of transmitters work just fine in
airplanes with no soil available.


So I look hehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the
atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric field:
http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html