Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim Lux" wrote
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote
So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to
high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

"Static electrical charge can build up to high values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".


Would that be the so-called "fair weather current" about 1 pA/square meter?

Obviously, a big metal tower is going to perturb the local field, so a
tower with a cross section of 1 square meter is going to have a current
a lot bigger than 1pA.

But probably not microamps.

OTOH, a big tower could have substantial capacitance to ground.. I don't
recall off hand what the capacitance of a isolated cylinder is..
I seem to recall that for a rod with lengthdiameter, it's something
like 50pF/meter.

So, a 100 m tower will be 5000 pF.

Say the current is 1000 pA.

In one second, the voltage would be 1E-9/5E-9 = 0.2V

In a minute, 30V
In 10 minutes, 300V..

etc

Probably not enough to charge to voltages quickly enough to be a problem.

Tribocharging from dust and other particulates blowing in the wind is a
LOT faster and a bigger problem.

On Jun 24, 7:53*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 23, 8:12 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track
ground-antenna?
sure.

" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil
of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys
are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".

no they don't... those types of transmitters work just fine in

airplanes with no soil available.

In the airplanes is the "chassis ground". The large metal surface is the
charge source. The surface exchanges charges with the air.

not nearly large enough, nor necessary.


. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the

atmosphere. *also partly due to the fair weather electric field:http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for *measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.

On Jun 24, 8:38*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"Jim Lux" ...



Szczepan Bialek wrote:
*"K1TTT" wrote

So I look hehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to
high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

"Static electrical charge can build up to high *values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?
S*

there is no static build up while transmitting from an antenna
isolated from ground. easily measured and proved here every day.

On 6/24/2010 3:56 PM, K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:53 am, "Szczepan wrote:
Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the

atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric field:http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.


He has yet to wonder how satellites could transmit very long. After
all, there would come a point in time where the charge would be so high
on the vacuum insulated satellite that it could perform his field
emission any longer.

It should be easy to observe as the signal strength would decrease with
time. I haven't noticed that effect myself, nor has anyone else.

tom
K0TAR

On 6/24/2010 7:25 PM, tom wrote:
On 6/24/2010 3:56 PM, K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:53 am, "Szczepan wrote:
Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the

atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric
field:http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same
atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.


He has yet to wonder how satellites could transmit very long. After all,
there would come a point in time where the charge would be so high on
the vacuum insulated satellite that it could perform his field emission

Oops should read "could NOT perform".

tom
K0TAR

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 24, 8:38 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?

there is no static build up while transmitting from an antenna
isolated from ground. easily measured and proved here every day.

See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
" In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential."

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

" no static build up while transmitting " because your station has ground.
S*

"tom" wrote
. net...
On 6/24/2010 3:56 PM, K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:53 am, "Szczepan wrote:

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same
atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.


He has yet to wonder how satellites could transmit very long. After all,
there would come a point in time where the charge would be so high on the
vacuum insulated satellite

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

that it could perform his field emission any longer.

In the vacuum is the rare plasma. The are free charges.

It should be easy to observe as the signal strength would decrease with
time. I haven't noticed that effect myself, nor has anyone else.

Are you sure?
Each ground must be large enough. Engineers know what to do.
Sometimes they water the ground area.

In the space the chassis must be large enough.
S*

"Jim Lux" wrote
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Static electrical charge can build up to high values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Would that be the so-called "fair weather current" about 1 pA/square
meter?

It is flowing all the time. We are interesting in the transmissing time.

Obviously, a big metal tower is going to perturb the local field, so a
tower with a cross section of 1 square meter is going to have a current a
lot bigger than 1pA.

But probably not microamps.

OTOH, a big tower could have substantial capacitance to ground.. I don't
recall off hand what the capacitance of a isolated cylinder is..
I seem to recall that for a rod with lengthdiameter, it's something like
50pF/meter.

So, a 100 m tower will be 5000 pF.

Say the current is 1000 pA.

In one second, the voltage would be 1E-9/5E-9 = 0.2V

In a minute, 30V
In 10 minutes, 300V..

etc

It is a free energy .

Probably not enough to charge to voltages quickly enough to be a problem.

Tribocharging from dust and other particulates blowing in the wind is a
LOT faster and a bigger problem.

It works in the both directions. Charged tower lose charges.
S*

On Jun 25, 7:24*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 24, 8:38 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?
there is no static build up while transmitting from an antenna

isolated from ground. *easily measured and proved here every day.

See;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
" In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential."

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

" no static build up while transmitting " because your station has ground..
S*

you are almost as much fun as art with his magical levitating
neutrinos.

no, i have antennas that are isolated from ground. they are fed
through a capacitor that prevents the charge from flowing to ground
and they do not get charged over time. i know this because when a
thunderstorm is nearby they build up enough charge to arc over the
capacitor. if there was charge being constantly emitted when they are
transmitting the capacitor would arc all the time.

Uzytkownik "K1TTT" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Jun 25, 7:24 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
" In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential."

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

" no static build up while transmitting " because your station has
ground.
S*

you are almost as much fun as art with his magical levitating
neutrinos.

I am as much fun like Tesla, the father of radio.

no, i have antennas that are isolated from ground. they are fed
through a capacitor that prevents the charge from flowing to ground

Your station produces asymetrical pulses. The all real waves are not
symmetrical. The insulator in the capacitor is a poor conductor but its
surface is large.
It CONDUCTS because the pulses are not symmetrical.

and they do not get charged over time.

They must: " In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized
as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential."

The electronic circuit theory is the ruler in your station. Not EM.

i know this because when a
thunderstorm is nearby they build up enough charge to arc over the
capacitor. if there was charge being constantly emitted when they are
transmitting the capacitor would arc all the time.

Your capacitor is fit to transmitting not for lightnings.
S*