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Old October 17th 10, 10:28 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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"K1TTT" wrote
...

water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic

waves. the only common part is that some part of the solution of
their equations includes a sine or cosine function.

Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are
harmonic.
S*


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Old October 17th 10, 12:15 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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On Oct 17, 9:28*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...

water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic


waves. *the only common part is that some part of the solution of
their equations includes a sine or cosine function.

Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are
harmonic.
S*


no, waves can transport energy without mass. photons have not rest
mass, only energy... look that up in your favorite wikipedia. sound
waves require mass, but don't have to transport it, just move it back
and forth around a point, thus they move energy without net movement
of mass.
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Old October 17th 10, 05:32 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Oct 17, 9:28 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"K1TTT"
...

water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic


waves. the only common part is that some part of the solution of

their equations includes a sine or cosine function.

Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are

harmonic.
S*


no, waves can transport energy without mass. photons have not rest

mass, only energy... look that up in your favorite wikipedia. sound
waves require mass, but don't have to transport it, just move it back
and forth around a point, thus they move energy without net movement
of mass.

So read the Wiki:
"For a pure wave motion in fluid dynamics, the Stokes drift velocity is the
average velocity when following a specific fluid parcel as it travels with
the fluid flow. For instance, a particle floating at the free surface of
water waves, experiences a net Stokes drift velocity in the direction of
wave propagation.
More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift in
his 1847 study of water waves."

This nonlinear phenomenon is in each real wave. In texbooks are a paper
waves - for kids. They are linear and symmetric.

"just move it back and forth around a point" is a simplification necessary
in schools.

S*




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Old October 17th 10, 05:55 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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On Oct 17, 4:32*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Oct 17, 9:28 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"K1TTT"
...


water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic


waves. the only common part is that some part of the solution of

their equations includes a sine or cosine function.


Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are

harmonic.
S*
no, waves can transport energy without mass. *photons have not rest


mass, only energy... look that up in your favorite wikipedia. *sound
waves require mass, but don't have to transport it, just move it back
and forth around a point, thus they move energy without net movement
of mass.

So read the Wiki:
"For a pure wave motion in fluid dynamics, the Stokes drift velocity is the
average velocity when following a specific fluid parcel as it travels with
the fluid flow. For instance, a particle floating at the free surface of
water waves, experiences a net Stokes drift velocity in the direction of
wave propagation.
More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift in
his 1847 study of water waves."

This nonlinear phenomenon is in each real wave. In texbooks are a paper
waves - for kids. They are linear and symmetric.

"just move it back and forth around a point" is a simplification necessary
in schools.

S*


ah, but that requires fluid flow. electromagnetic waves do not
require fluid flow or they could not travel at c. There may be some
analogous phenomena in plasma where you can get non-linear effects but
they would not propagate at c, they would be at some much smaller
velocity.
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Old October 18th 10, 08:37 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Uzytkownik "K1TTT" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Oct 17, 4:32 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the

average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average
Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon
is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift
in
his 1847 study of water waves."

This nonlinear phenomenon is in each real wave. In texbooks are a paper

waves - for kids. They are linear and symmetric.

"just move it back and forth around a point" is a simplification necessary
in schools.

ah, but that requires fluid flow. electromagnetic waves do not

require fluid flow or they could not travel at c.

EM waves are the torsional vibrations in a solid dielectric. In solids are
the strains. Tiny flows.

There may be some

analogous phenomena in plasma where you can get non-linear effects but
they would not propagate at c, they would be at some much smaller
velocity.

The vector calculus describe only movements.
Ancient people describesd the planet movements. But the planet were
described more later.

The same is with the radio waves. They are still not described physically.
In the description must be words electrons and voltage.
S*




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Old October 19th 10, 02:43 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
tom tom is offline
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On 10/18/2010 2:37 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

The vector calculus describe only movements.


Really? I did not know that.

Crap. And argh.

I thought it was more useful than that.

Who knew?

tom
K0TAR
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Old October 19th 10, 06:44 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:43:42 -0500, tom wrote:

On 10/18/2010 2:37 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

The vector calculus describe only movements.


Really? I did not know that.

Crap. And argh.

I thought it was more useful than that.

Who knew?


Stalin had the science writers purge their texts of those qualities
that you miss and that we enjoy here in the west (they were condemned
as bourgeois inspired perversions with counter-revolution tendencies).
Hence you find decrepit pensioners sneering at elitist propaganda
(western science) that dismisses the party-approved water models of RF
transmission. In the historical perspective, we have to remember this
state inspired instruction was learned in an era of RF transmission
jammers located in every neighborhood so that trying to hear the VOA
or the BBC made things sound like you were listening through the
breakers of the surf. Hence the "experience" of the water model was
very pervasive and arguing its falsity comes up against the resistance
of the old guard.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
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