On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:13:10 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:

Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions

Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions.

The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input
power.

There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input
power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional
data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't.

x power/ y power = x/y

The units cancel to form a dimensionles, unitless, ratio.

This is grade school math.

unitless yes and in the example given no metadata is provided. The
result of the calculation is just a meaningless number.

What of the equation :
x units of radiated power / y units of input power
The units cancel but the metadata doesn't. The result is a number that
describes the ratio of radiated power to input power.

The phrase "dimensional metadata" is meaningless babble.

You can call it meaningless babble but in its simplest form
dimensional metadata provides meaning and additional information to
raw data. You have used dimensional metadata in this thread and
unknowningly use it every day. The phrase "80% antenna efficiency"
contains both a unitless number and dimensional metadata. In this case
the metadata describes the dimensional calculation used to produce the
result. Remove the dimensional metadata and the phrase becomes "80%".
The latter has no context and conveys no meaningful information
because it represents a ratio of two unknowns. It could be a ratio
representing antenna efficiency or the price of apples compared to the
price of oranges. Raw data without metadata is meaningless babble.

Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:13:10 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:

Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions

Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions.

The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input
power.

There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input
power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional
data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't.

x power/ y power = x/y

The units cancel to form a dimensionles, unitless, ratio.

This is grade school math.

unitless yes and in the example given no metadata is provided. The
result of the calculation is just a meaningless number.

What of the equation :
x units of radiated power / y units of input power
The units cancel but the metadata doesn't. The result is a number that
describes the ratio of radiated power to input power.

2 watt / 10 watt = 0.2

No "metadata".

If the 2 watts is the radiated power of an antenna and the 10 watts is the
input power, the antenna efficiency is 0.2 or 20% since efficiency is normally
expressed as a percentage.

If the 2 watts is the output power of some circuit and the 10 watts is the
input power, the circuit has a gain of 0.2 or -7db.

If the input energy to a heat engine is 10 joules and the output energy is
2 joules, the efficiency of the engine is:

100 * (2 joule / 10 joule) = 20%



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:02:55 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:13:10 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:

Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions

Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions.

The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input
power.

There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input
power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional
data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't.

x power/ y power = x/y

The units cancel to form a dimensionles, unitless, ratio.

This is grade school math.

unitless yes and in the example given no metadata is provided. The
result of the calculation is just a meaningless number.

What of the equation :
x units of radiated power / y units of input power
The units cancel but the metadata doesn't. The result is a number that
describes the ratio of radiated power to input power.

2 watt / 10 watt = 0.2

No "metadata".

Yes no metadata beyond the UOM and when the UOMs cancel the result is
a bare number. Twenty percent of what?

If the 2 watts is the radiated power of an antenna and the 10 watts is the
input power, the antenna efficiency is 0.2 or 20% since efficiency is normally
expressed as a percentage.

Now you're adding metadata to provide information about what the 0.2
or 20% means.

If the 2 watts is the output power of some circuit and the 10 watts is the
input power, the circuit has a gain of 0.2 or -7db.

If the input energy to a heat engine is 10 joules and the output energy is
2 joules, the efficiency of the engine is:

100 * (2 joule / 10 joule) = 20%

A selected calculated expression provides a ratio which resolved to a
value of three-tenths. Which of the three previously shown
expressions, if any, was selected to produced the result 0.3?

A - antenna efficiency
B - engine efficiency
C - circuit efficiency
D - none of the above

It's a simple question with no metadata provided about the calculated
expression arguments and no metadata associated with the result. In a
nutshell, no metadata what so ever. If metadata is unimportant then
there should be no problem answering the question.

On Dec 13, 7:32*pm, Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:02:55 -0000, wrote:
Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:13:10 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:

Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions

Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions.

The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input
power.

There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input
power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional
data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't.

x power/ y power = x/y

The units cancel to form a dimensionles, unitless, ratio.

This is grade school math.

unitless yes and in the example given no metadata is provided. The
result of the calculation is just a meaningless number.

What of the equation :
* * x units of radiated power / y units of input power
The units cancel but the metadata doesn't. The result is a number that
describes the ratio of radiated power to input power.

2 watt / 10 watt = 0.2

No "metadata".

Yes no metadata beyond the UOM and when the UOMs cancel the result is
a bare number. Twenty percent of what?

If the 2 watts is the radiated power of an antenna and the 10 watts is the
input power, the antenna efficiency is 0.2 or 20% since efficiency is normally
expressed as a percentage.

Now you're adding metadata to provide information about what the 0.2
or 20% means.

If the 2 watts is the output power of some circuit and the 10 watts is the
input power, the circuit has a gain of 0.2 or -7db.

If the input energy to a heat engine is 10 joules and the output energy is
2 joules, the efficiency of the engine is:

100 * (2 joule / 10 joule) = 20%

A selected calculated expression provides a ratio which resolved to a
value of three-tenths. Which of the three previously shown
expressions, if any, was selected to produced the result 0.3?

A - antenna efficiency
B - engine efficiency
C - circuit efficiency
D - none of the above

It's a simple question with no metadata provided about the calculated
expression arguments and no metadata associated with the result. In a
nutshell, no metadata what so ever. If metadata is unimportant then
there should be no problem answering the question.

the answer is 42

Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:02:55 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:13:10 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:32:53 -0000, wrote:

Registered User wrote:

Efficiency is a measure so it must have one or more dimensions

Efficiency is a ratio usually expressed as a percentage and has no dimensions.

The efficiency of an antenna is the radiated power divided by the input
power.

There are two dimensions in the calculation, radiated power and input
power. Although the units of measure associated with the dimensional
data may cancel the dimensional metadata doesn't.

x power/ y power = x/y

The units cancel to form a dimensionles, unitless, ratio.

This is grade school math.

unitless yes and in the example given no metadata is provided. The
result of the calculation is just a meaningless number.

What of the equation :
x units of radiated power / y units of input power
The units cancel but the metadata doesn't. The result is a number that
describes the ratio of radiated power to input power.

2 watt / 10 watt = 0.2

No "metadata".

Yes no metadata beyond the UOM and when the UOMs cancel the result is
a bare number. Twenty percent of what?


Have you the slightest clue what the word "context" means?

"Antenna efficiency is 20%" has all the information required and if the
discussion is about antennas, "efficiency is 20%" has all the information
required.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:51:07 -0000, wrote:

Have you the slightest clue what the word "context" means?

Absolutely, yes I do. In turn I will ask do you know what metadata is?
Both dimensional and non-dimensional metadata provide context.
Non-dimensional metadata doesn't always provide the complete context.
Dimensional metadata provides greater context because it conveys more
detailed and specific information.

"Antenna efficiency is 20%" has all the information required and if the
discussion is about antennas, "efficiency is 20%" has all the information
required.

When data gets shared among multiple parties it is important that a
ubiquitous language is used to describe the data and its meaning.
Antenna efficiency can be measured in different ways so the phrase
"antenna efficiency is 20%" can mean different things to different
people. All it takes is one person to ask how antenna efficiency is
calculated and it will become evident that context of "antenna
efficiency is 20%" does not provide all the information required.

When the result's context includes dimensional metadata such as "20%
antenna efficiency calculated as the ratio of power radiated to input
power" the meaning of the result and how it was calculated both are
self-evident. Everyone knows what the result means because the
dimensional metadata provides an exact definition. A mere ten words of
dimensional metadata adds succinct clarity to the result. What makes
such clarity unnecessary and/or undesirable?

On Dec 14, 5:02*am, Registered User wrote:


When data gets shared among multiple parties it is important that a
ubiquitous language is used to describe the data and its meaning.
Antenna efficiency can be measured in different ways so the phrase
"antenna efficiency is 20%" can mean different things to different
people. All it takes is one person to ask how antenna efficiency is
calculated and it will become evident that context of "antenna
efficiency is 20%" does not provide all the information required.

Sure it does. Antenna efficiency is only calculated one way,
so there is no need to add extra "metadata".
Like one said, it's redundant. In the real world, most will
calculate the efficiency of the antenna system as a whole.
Not just the radiating element/s. Even a very small dipole
vs wavelength will radiate nearly all power that is applied to it.
The trick is actually getting the power to it without it turning to
heat.
So most will calculate the whole system, otherwise it's
fairly pointless. But the efficiency of even a whole system is
still calculated the same way, and no extra "metadata" is
required to calculate. It's still the ratio between the output of the
transmitter, vs the RF actually radiated. It's been that way
since they invented dirt, so who needs metadata? I sure don't.

I'm starting to think it must be a full moon...
It's been getting pretty silly around here lately.. :/

On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 05:37:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 14, 5:02*am, Registered User wrote:


When data gets shared among multiple parties it is important that a
ubiquitous language is used to describe the data and its meaning.
Antenna efficiency can be measured in different ways so the phrase
"antenna efficiency is 20%" can mean different things to different
people. All it takes is one person to ask how antenna efficiency is
calculated and it will become evident that context of "antenna
efficiency is 20%" does not provide all the information required.

Sure it does. Antenna efficiency is only calculated one way,
so there is no need to add extra "metadata".

Funny thing, when working parabolic antennas antenna efficiency and
aperture efficiency are used interchangeably.

Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:51:07 -0000, wrote:

Have you the slightest clue what the word "context" means?

Absolutely, yes I do. In turn I will ask do you know what metadata is?

Yes, and I also know what ice cream is, both of which are irrelevant to
the discussion.

Both dimensional and non-dimensional metadata provide context.
Non-dimensional metadata doesn't always provide the complete context.
Dimensional metadata provides greater context because it conveys more
detailed and specific information.

Only an ignorant, anal retentive git would think that basic terminology has
to be defined each and every time it is used.

"Antenna efficiency is 20%" has all the information required and if the
discussion is about antennas, "efficiency is 20%" has all the information
required.

When data gets shared among multiple parties it is important that a
ubiquitous language is used to describe the data and its meaning.

The term "antenna efficiency" has a unique and unambigous definition and
can be found in any textbook on electromagnetics.

snip long winded babble


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Dec 14, 4:54*pm, wrote:
Registered User wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:51:07 -0000, wrote:

Have you the slightest clue what the word "context" means?

Absolutely, yes I do. In turn I will ask do you know what metadata is?

Yes, and I also know what ice cream is, both of which are irrelevant to
the discussion.

Both dimensional and non-dimensional metadata provide context.
Non-dimensional metadata doesn't always provide the complete context.
Dimensional metadata provides greater context because it conveys more
detailed and specific information.

Only an ignorant, anal retentive git would think that basic terminology has
to be defined each and every time it is used.

"Antenna efficiency is 20%" has all the information required and if the
discussion is about antennas, "efficiency is 20%" has all the information
required.

When data gets shared among multiple parties it is important that a
ubiquitous language is used to describe the data and its meaning.

The term "antenna efficiency" has a unique and unambigous definition and
can be found in any textbook on electromagnetics.

really? i don't see either 'efficiency' or 'antenna efficiency' in
either my 2nd edition of jackson's classical electrodynamics, or
ramo,whinnery, and van duzer's fields and waves in communication
electronics... if you know where those terms might be defined in
either of those please let me know, maybe the indexes aren't complete
or something.