Hi from Ken,
"zeno" wrote in message ...
Seems like everyone I talk to about using ladder line to my
proposed 540' horizontal skywire loop does a double take when
I say I want to use ladder line into the shack. I was curious
if there are any fans of ladderline feed systems who can
relate positive experiences, or am I about to really court
disaster here.

The ARRL antenna book says that coax to this type of antenna
is not as "multiband" friendly as was once fantasized....they
recommend ladder line.

Anyone actually have such a loop? What is your experience?


Bill, K6TAJ


You need to use a true 'balanced ATU' for best performance with this type of
antenna.
BalUns in a 'TransMatch' type of ATU do not make up for using a truly
balanced ATU.
Hope this helps, cheers and good luck, Ken, G4KIR.

The electrical properties of sealing materials and greases are not defined
or specified. They probably make poor dielectrics when surrounding or are in
between transmission line conductors. I wouldn't use the stuff. A few
spots of super-glue would be ok.

There's no need to run open-wire line through walls and windows via two
spaced holes. The building material between the wires will probably be of
awful dielectric quality anyway.

Just bring the pair of insulated wires close together for a short distance
and run them through a single somewhat larger hole lined with a short, pvc
or polythene tube. Slope the tube and the line to prevent rainwater from
running indoors.

When coming through glass or DRY varnished timber a single hole is fine. On
high power lines make sure the insulation on the wires where they are close
together is thick enough to withstand the high voltage at high SWR.

At HF, the discontinuity in Zo due to bringing the wires close together for
a few inches, even a foot or more, is absolutely negligeable. And there's
nothing wrong with changing from a long open-wire line (outdoors) to a short
ladder line to the transmitter (indoors).

Use a simple choke balun between the transmitter end of balanced lines and
the tuner. The luxury of a balanced tuner is unnecessary.
----
Reg, G4FGQ

====================================
Reg Edwards wrote:

Even a 300-ohm twin line with substantial conductors, not the flimsy old
TV
downlead type, will effect an improvement over the usual sort of coax.
450-ohm ladder line is most popular because of cheapness and relative
ease
of installation. But for perfectionists, on very long lines, a 5" or 6"
spaced 600-ohm work-of-art cannot be bettered.

any reason that silicon sealant would not be as good as anything else when
fixing (gluing) the wires to the slotted holes of the spacers in a
homebrew
ladder line? Any reason why this same substance would not be appropriate
to
seal up the ceramic tubes where such lines go through a wall?

this stuff is tough, weather resistant, sticks, and stays flexible.

Bill, K6TAJ

Hi, all concerned:

subject: The simple answer is, "Yes". Then, it gets, well, complicated.
TDIITDetails, YK.

After several fires-on-the-feedline with QRO and commercial steel-cored
owl's, I rolled my own, and I close the (vinyl "AIRTITE"-brand) windows on
parallel strips of copper flashing, fastened to the sills inside and out, to
get up to the legal limit of r-f into or out of the shack. Parallel-tuned
or series-tuned ckts in the shack take care of the coax-to-owl transitions.

It once was a quickie way to get on 160M, to yak with one's buddies, by
deliberately tying together the ends of the owl feeder to an 80M dipole
right in the shack, and feeding the thing as a wire against what ever ground
was available. That mode can occur as an unintended consequence of simply
using what ever lengths of "antenna" and "feedline" that fit one's
situation. BT, DT .

I forestall many rfi problems in the shack by having several layers of
aluminum foil, under the rug, with drain wires connected to equipment and
earth ground. This cools metal microphones and knobs down nicely if one
uses the quickie fix to get on 160M.

HTH.

73, Dave, N3HE

"zeno" wrote in message ...
Seems like everyone I talk to about using ladder line to my
proposed 540' horizontal skywire loop does a double take when
I say I want to use ladder line into the shack. I was curious
if there are any fans of ladderline feed systems who can
relate positive experiences, or am I about to really court
disaster here.

The ARRL antenna book says that coax to this type of antenna
is not as "multiband" friendly as was once fantasized....they
recommend ladder line.

Anyone actually have such a loop? What is your experience?


Bill, K6TAJ

Hi Bill

I don't know whether my system is considered right or wrong, but it
has worked for 20 years with no problems at all and no TVI.

On the wall outside of my shack is a 1/16" thick copper plate that
measures about 14" x 18" A #6 braided copper cable, brazed along the
left edge, along with 3 bolts through it as well, connects to an 8
foot grounding rod with clamps. It is through holes in this copper
plate that all wires lead into the shack.

On the inside of the house, a section of drywall was removed from
between the studs temporarily, in order to install 9 gas bottle
lighting arresters inside the wall. The grounding cables from them #8
copper pass through clamps (similar to romex connectors) at the bottom
of the copper plate and also connect to the grounding rod. Two open
ports (from inside to outside) were made through the wall using 3 inch
partially flattened PVC pipe with TWO 3/4 inch PVC pipes spaced to the
edges of this pipe, the center was filled with a 1-1/4 inch PVC pipe
and around it filled with spray foam and trimmed flush after drying.
The drywall section removed was drilled where the gas bottles and 2
openings were made and refitted to the wall and finished off with
joint compound, etc. so it looks like it was never removed.

This setup gives my place for through the wall connections to my
antenna's and I never needed to use all of the ports I installed in my
20 years there.

I have handled ladderline in a couple of different ways over the
years. Initially, I passed my ladder line, one leg through each of
the 3/4 PVC tubes and on the inside to my tuner, on the outside to the
antenna it was used with, in this case a loop skywire.

A rotor cable was fed through one of the 3/4 inch PVC tubes at the
other end of the panel. A major mistake as when I did take a
lightning hit, the only place it got into the shack was through this
abandoned rotor cable. No real harm done other than a rotor cable
welded to the back of two filing cabinets by lighting, and a pooch who
will never come into my shack again after getting dowsed with flying
sparks.

I later, after moving my desk to a different wall and didn't want open
ladder line running free in the room, used the gas bottles as lead ins
for the ladder line and coax from the gas bottle to the tuner. I saw
no difference in performance doing it this way, and it was much safer
in my opinion. Previously, I used a knife switch to run the ladder to
ground when not in use. Now it just stays connected all the time
through the gas bottles.

As an aside, I had a similar set-up at my former house, only without
the gas bottle lightning arresters. Then I would use connectors
through the copper plate which grounded the braid to the copper plate.

In all cases, after my system was installed, I heavily sprayed the
copper plate with like 4 coats of trumpet laquer, which also sealed
all of the connections against moisture. Silicone was not available
at that time (30 years ago) to the public that I know of. We also
used a lot of tar strips back in those days also to wrap around
connectors and areas of exposure to the elements.

In places where it is feasible, I prefer ladder line over coax!
One of the best ladder lines I ever constructed was using some of my
sons Monster Cable that he had used with his stereo speaker system.
This heavy cable for some reason made a noticable difference in how my
80 meter loop skywire functioned. Bandwidth was definately greater,
and many received station signals were stronger. Logical NO, but they
were.

As an aside, I often used miniature plastic I-Beams from the hobby
shop instead of wood for my spacers. When glued using an oil of
mustard based glue, the adhesion was permanent. With wood, I often
had the glues come loose and the spacers shift as the wood aged,
and/or absorbed moisture and redried, etc.

TTUL - 73+ de Gary - KGØZP

It seems to me that the slightly larger single hole through my house wall up
near the peak (which is nothing more than an inch of wood really) is more
intrusive than two small spaced holes through which I could insert a 3-4" long
old style ceramic insulator tube. There would be a short run of 10 feet to a
spot in the ceiling (again nothing more than 1/2" of redwood) into which I
could use the same type of ceramic tube, after that it is only a couple more
feet to the rig. I do like your idea of angling the tube coming from outside to
counter the possible dripping in of moisture (rain), also will put what is
called a drip loop in the line before it enters the tubes so the wires are
aiming uphill at that point. I already have a balanced tuner on hand so I might
as well include the luxury since I have it. I will take your advice and avoid
these sealants and use a dab of super glue. In the end, if this line gives me
trouble (with the neighbors phones etc.) I will go to coax. But I do want to
give this old style balanced line a shot first since there seems to be a
handful of operators who do recommend it.


73 Bill K6TAJ

Reg Edwards wrote:

The electrical properties of sealing materials and greases are not defined
or specified. They probably make poor dielectrics when surrounding or are in
between transmission line conductors. I wouldn't use the stuff. A few
spots of super-glue would be ok.

There's no need to run open-wire line through walls and windows via two
spaced holes. The building material between the wires will probably be of
awful dielectric quality anyway.

Just bring the pair of insulated wires close together for a short distance
and run them through a single somewhat larger hole lined with a short, pvc
or polythene tube. Slope the tube and the line to prevent rainwater from
running indoors.

When coming through glass or DRY varnished timber a single hole is fine. On
high power lines make sure the insulation on the wires where they are close
together is thick enough to withstand the high voltage at high SWR.

At HF, the discontinuity in Zo due to bringing the wires close together for
a few inches, even a foot or more, is absolutely negligeable. And there's
nothing wrong with changing from a long open-wire line (outdoors) to a short
ladder line to the transmitter (indoors).

Use a simple choke balun between the transmitter end of balanced lines and
the tuner. The luxury of a balanced tuner is unnecessary.
----
Reg, G4FGQ

====================================
Reg Edwards wrote:

Even a 300-ohm twin line with substantial conductors, not the flimsy old
TV
downlead type, will effect an improvement over the usual sort of coax.
450-ohm ladder line is most popular because of cheapness and relative
ease
of installation. But for perfectionists, on very long lines, a 5" or 6"
spaced 600-ohm work-of-art cannot be bettered.

any reason that silicon sealant would not be as good as anything else when
fixing (gluing) the wires to the slotted holes of the spacers in a
homebrew
ladder line? Any reason why this same substance would not be appropriate
to
seal up the ceramic tubes where such lines go through a wall?

this stuff is tough, weather resistant, sticks, and stays flexible.

Bill, K6TAJ

Hi Gary,

That is some vivid and colorful experience you describe there.

I haven't ever heard anything like that gounded copper "face" plate at
the entry point to the house. What is the theory there? If it wants to
arc it goes to ground?


I don't know whether my system is considered right or wrong, but it
has worked for 20 years with no problems at all and no TVI.


I am glad to hear that, since I do have a few neighbors here.


On the wall outside of my shack is a 1/16" thick copper plate that
measures about 14" x 18" A #6 braided copper cable, brazed along the
left edge, along with 3 bolts through it as well, connects to an 8
foot grounding rod with clamps. It is through holes in this copper
plate that all wires lead into the shack.


What kind of insulators did you install in that copper plate for the
wires to go through?


On the inside of the house, a section of drywall was removed from
between the studs temporarily, in order to install 9 gas bottle
lighting arresters inside the wall.

I am not sure what this gas bottle arrester is. Are you talking about a
homebrew made from some recycled material of some kind?


"I have handled ladderline in a couple of different ways over the

years. Initially, I passed my ladder line, one leg through each of
the 3/4 PVC tubes and on the inside to my tuner, on the outside to the
antenna it was used with, in this case a loop skywire.


your use of the pvc tubes is not that different my intended use of those
old ceramic tubes, It just happen to have saved a bunch here at the farm
and have a bucket full of them. They were used to run the ac wires
through wooden chicken house walls, you know they left those lights on so
the chickens would lay more eggs....there were an awful lot of these
lights running along to 100' long chicken houses. I have spent many years
dismantling and remodelling these old buildings. Now we only have a half
dozen chickens and that is even too many..hi hi...what were we talking
about,,,,oh yes....ladder line....



As an aside, I had a similar set-up at my former house, only without
the gas bottle lightning arresters. Then I would use connectors
through the copper plate which grounded the braid to the copper plate.


I am in K6 here, not much lightning, however, I think I will put a big
old knife switch in

In places where it is feasible, I prefer ladder line over coax!
One of the best ladder lines I ever constructed was using some of my
sons Monster Cable that he had used with his stereo speaker system.
This heavy cable for some reason made a noticable difference in how my
80 meter loop skywire functioned. Bandwidth was definately greater,
and many received station signals were stronger. Logical NO, but they
were.


Are you saying that you made your ladderline out of monster cable
(braided #12 or so) by separating the two stands and keeping the
insulation on it and using spacers? Or are you saying you used monster
speaker cable "as is" for ladder line (those two strands would be kind of
close that way, maybe that gave you a favorable impedance in that
situation. I am trying to get the picture. I do have a bunch of that
cable on hand as well and never even gave it a thought as applying to ham
radio....it fits into my audio and speaker building hobby.....


As an aside, I often used miniature plastic I-Beams from the hobby
shop instead of wood for my spacers.

yes, the search for good spacers.....I am thinking of using those small
dia. uv/pvc tubes (4") that are used as ferrules for rain gutter spikes.
The company is sending me a bad of 250 without the spikes for a nominal
price....samples you know.....

I don't why I am so fixed on this ladder line idea...maybe because I want
to design one of those old fashioned qsl cards with a cartoon of a
chicken house ham shack up on a hill with a cartoon latter line going up
to a wire antenna with old fashioned glass strain insulators etc.....dah,
di dah, di dah dah dah being pounded out on a log drum.......with sparks
flying out to all points in the ionosphere.....

73 Bill k6taj

"Jack Painter" wrote in message
news:SJZic.41278$fq4.23897@lakeread05...

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...

"zeno" wrote in message
...
Seems like everyone I talk to about using ladder line to my
proposed 540' horizontal skywire loop does a double take when
I say I want to use ladder line into the shack. I was curious
if there are any fans of ladderline feed systems who can
relate positive experiences, or am I about to really court
disaster here.

The ARRL antenna book says that coax to this type of antenna
is not as "multiband" friendly as was once fantasized....they
recommend ladder line.

Anyone actually have such a loop? What is your experience?


Bill, K6TAJ


I use 450 ohm ladder line on two seperate antennas here. One is a full
sized 40 meter loop, in right triangle configuration, vertical. I run
the
line straight into the shack and into a EF Johnson Matchbox. Works all
bands 40 thr 10 just fine. I run 600 watts into it, and no problems.
No
TVI, No computer faults, no telephone problems.

On the other antenna I have a 140 CF doublet with 450 Ladder Line feed.
This into a Heathkit SA-2040 tuner. Same same as above.

The reason I am able to run the LL into the shack is that I have a large
out
building that I have the shack in. Run it right through, not a problem.

Just keep the line away from conductive objects and I run it up to my
ceiling then out.

Dan/W4NTI

slightly off topic....

Hi Dan,

What kind of lightning protection do you employ for straight ladderline?
What are the options (besides tossing it out the window) - if you aren't
using any? I don't run any feeds through my windows, so I wondered what
options that left for ladderline, etc.

Thanks

Jack
Virginia Beach



I don't have any lightning protection on them at this point. I normally
disconnect things when I leave the 'shack' anyway.

However back in the old days the use of spark gaps were common for open wire
line. Get some of the real Old Timers here to talk about that one.

Dan/W4NTI

Jeez Reggie,

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:21:12 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote:

The electrical properties of sealing materials and greases are not defined
or specified.
However...
A few spots of super-glue would be ok.

I would be MOST curious about the defined properties of this wondrous
material. However, super-glue is not a void filler a function which
may still need to be performed.

Bet let us continue.

There's no need to run open-wire line through walls and windows via two
spaced holes. The building material between the wires will probably be of
awful dielectric quality anyway.

seems to contradict:

When coming through glass or DRY varnished timber a single hole is fine. On
high power lines make sure the insulation on the wires where they are close
together is thick enough to withstand the high voltage at high SWR.

Which in turn seems to lead to another contradiction:

At HF, the discontinuity in Zo due to bringing the wires close together for
a few inches, even a foot or more, is absolutely negligeable.

Hmm, just about spark gap dimensioning, close to combustibles, High
SWR jacked up even higher to boost voltage nodes more (I don't know
how the "short" distance ameliorates this - must be in the actuarial
tables somewhere).

This was certainly the most obscure way of saying don't worry about
it. ;-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Bill,
I used a loop fed with ladder line through a tuner for
years. Worked pretty well on all bands but 15 meters. It
wasn't the highest thing at all, but did fine for my uses.
I placed a board in a window to feed the ladder line through.
Drilled a couple of holes, fed a couple of short sections of
wire through them, sealed them with 'hot glue' and had no
particular problems for years (no water leaking in, etc.).
I couldn't tell you the exact length of the feed line, I never
knew, and since there were no problems, I really didn't much
care how long it was. My tuner has a balun in it (suspect a
4:1?) and handled the impedances well even at full legal
limits.
My loop came down in an ice storm a couple of years ago
and as soon as I get over my 'bout' of lazy, I'll put it
back up. I didn't have any unusual FRI problems (the neighbors
did, but that's a different story, and one that was solved).
The phone and computer are only a couple of feet from the
entrance point of the ladder line and radio/amplifier. Curing
telephone and computer RFI isn't what you asked about so I
won't go into it (mine's solved anyway).
Have fun...
'Doc


zeno wrote:

Seems like everyone I talk to about using ladder line to my
proposed 540' horizontal skywire loop does a double take when
I say I want to use ladder line into the shack. I was curious
if there are any fans of ladderline feed systems who can
relate positive experiences, or am I about to really court
disaster here.

The ARRL antenna book says that coax to this type of antenna
is not as "multiband" friendly as was once fantasized....they
recommend ladder line.

Anyone actually have such a loop? What is your experience?

Bill, K6TAJ

Hi Bill

That is some vivid and colorful experience you describe there.

I haven't ever heard anything like that gounded copper "face" plate at
the entry point to the house. What is the theory there? If it wants to
arc it goes to ground?

In my case, it was more of a matter of what I could get at the time I
started doing this. Copper was the only thing I knew of that I could
easily braze to using copper phosphorus bronze rods and a simple low
cost propane torch. Short bolts with semi U shaped washers were used
through grounding cables because lightning could melt the brazing just
as easily as solder.

Also, my house had vertical aluminum siding and I didn't want stray RF
heating it up or causing my house to act like an antenna or someone
get burned while I was on the air by touching the house. I was a
worry wart!

I am glad to hear that, since I do have a few neighbors here.

It wasn't so much the TV's as those cheap arse cordless telephones.
When using antenna's fed with ladder line, I never messed them up.


What kind of insulators did you install in that copper plate for the
wires to go through?

NONE!
But here is the order in which I progressed over the years.
At first, I drilled hole in the copper plate, passed the coax through
the hole, cut the covering down to the shield, wrapped a copper wire
around the shield, brazed it to the copper plate, soldered to the
shield, coated with tar wrap and sprayed over all with trumpet lacquer

Later, I used a connector, don't remember the order number, like a
double SO239 and brazed all the way around it. There is about a 1db
loss using two PL259s and a joining connector.

My final setup used gas bottle lightning arrestors, one end was stuck
through the hole in the copper plate, the other end through the
drywall inside. They were just the right length for this!
The ground braid from the gas bottles went to the lower edge of the
copper plate. Silicone was coated over the outside connections.


I am not sure what this gas bottle arrester is. Are you talking about a
homebrew made from some recycled material of some kind?
No, they are store bought, the gas bottle is inside of a metal
housing. Transi-Trap is one brand name.

your use of the pvc tubes is not that different my intended use of those
old ceramic tubes, It just happen to have saved a bunch here at the farm
and have a bucket full of them. They were used to run the ac wires
through wooden chicken house walls, you know they left those lights on so
the chickens would lay more eggs....there were an awful lot of these
lights running along to 100' long chicken houses. I have spent many years
dismantling and remodelling these old buildings. Now we only have a half
dozen chickens and that is even too many..hi hi...what were we talking
about,,,,oh yes....ladder line....

Yep, I'm very familiar with the old Knob & Tube wiring!
I spent about 25 years remodeling older homes.
You might like to see how I get a 5 foot bathtub into a 4 foot wide
bathroom after making the tub area only 3-1/2 feet wide by covering up
the exposed vent stack. If so, check out my hidden web page at
http://archimedes.galilei.com/raiar this is my index page, it has no
link to the hidden pages, but there is a picture of this old man on
there somewhere, plus some other junk you might be interested in as
well. To get to the bathtub, behind the URL type /BATH and look for
the .html page and open it, it will bring up all the .jpg's in
storyline fashion.


I am in K6 here, not much lightning, however, I think I will put a big
old knife switch in

A lot of hams disconnect their antenna's and leave the cable laying
open. This is VERY DANGEROUS as lightning, if it does come in through
the feedline will arc to the nearest ground and sometimes to many
ground points in the room. NEVER leave an unconnected feedline laying
loose in the shack. Run it to ground or toss it back outside.


Are you saying that you made your ladderline out of monster cable
(braided #12 or so) by separating the two stands and keeping the
insulation on it and using spacers? Or are you saying you used monster
speaker cable "as is" for ladder line (those two strands would be kind of
close that way, maybe that gave you a favorable impedance in that
situation. I am trying to get the picture. I do have a bunch of that
cable on hand as well and never even gave it a thought as applying to ham
radio....it fits into my audio and speaker building hobby.....

No, I split the wires apart and spaced them slightly less than 6
inches apart. The plastic I beams I purchased were 12 inches long, I
cut these in half and drilled holes about 1/16 inch in from the ends.
So my wire spacing was more like 5-1/2 inches.
I have never seen much difference in spacing over 2 inches as far as
operation. I figure once you get over 500 ohms it doesn't really
matter too much after that if you are at 2000 or 10,000 ohms

yes, the search for good spacers.....I am thinking of using those small
dia. uv/pvc tubes (4") that are used as ferrules for rain gutter spikes.
The company is sending me a bad of 250 without the spikes for a nominal
price....samples you know.....

There you go!
I used doubled soda straws for temporary antenna's and later replaced
the straws with 3/8 PVC.

I don't why I am so fixed on this ladder line idea...maybe because I want
to design one of those old fashioned qsl cards with a cartoon of a
chicken house ham shack up on a hill with a cartoon latter line going up
to a wire antenna with old fashioned glass strain insulators etc.....dah,
di dah, di dah dah dah being pounded out on a log drum.......with sparks
flying out to all points in the ionosphere.....

I hear ya!

Neighbors called the fire department on me a few times and I wasn't
even on the air. But I was home all three times!

At one time I had a nice tower, a couple of large beams and a yagi all
riding aloft. I got a frantic phone call from a neighbor saying that
my antennas were on fire, just blazing away. I ran out into the
backyard and looked up, saw nothing unusual. About that time I heard
sirens blaring and they were stopping at my house. They did not see
anything amiss either.

A year later I had just pulled in the driveway, arriving home from
work, before I reached the door a fire truck came screaming down the
street and again stopped at my house. A neighbor had called them,
saying my roof was on fire. The inspected everything, including the
attic, could not find anything amiss.

About three years later, I finally saw with my own eyes what the
ruckus was about. It was heavily overcast, a mean storm was brewing.
I had just gotten off the highway and was coming down the main road
getting ready to turn onto my street. From this vantage point I could
see my antenna's and the top of my house with ease.
What I saw almost gave me a heart attack.
It was like fire was bellowing in all directions from the top of my
house. I stopped the truck on the hill down to my house and just
watched. I could discern that the fire was eminating from the tips of
each of the elements on my antenna's.
It wasn't but a few minutes that I was sitting there watching and it
was fading down and only the largest beam was still putting out a few
flashes when I heard those darn sirens. The fire truck went whizzing
right past me and pulled up at my house.
I pulled up behind them and grabbed one of the firemen and pulled him
back out to the street so he could see the last couple of flashes of
fire and then there were no more.

About two months later I get a telephone call from the fire
department, they had finally figured out what the sparks were caused
by. A phenomenon known as St. Elmo's Fire was the culprit.

I didn't have to worry about another call, because that season a
direct lightning hit to the tower caused the tower to explode and it
all came down in a heap.
Lightning hitting the tower should not have hurt anything at all, but
the legs of the tower had filled with rainwater over the years and the
lightning hit apparently turned the water to steam and blew the tower
apart. Leastwise, that was the professional inspectors assessment of
what had happened.

It turns out that in the area where I lived at the time, this was a
common occurance, especially on older homes and barns that had
lightning rods on the roofs. Not as pronounced as mine, because they
are only one point, where between my two beams, the yagi and several
tower mounted verticals, I had quite a few open ends (points) up
there. And everything was grounded to the max.

What is funny is I had lived in that same area all of my life and had
never seen anything like it before. My house was on the high side of
a long valley, just about 3 miles south of an area we call Tornado
Alley. If a thunderstorm was coming, it would run up or down the
valley and cross right over my house every single time. If it was
going to rain within a 50 mile radius, I would get wet, even if it
didn't rain on the other side of the street.
There were several times that it rained in my back yard and the front
yard never saw a drop of rain in a whole week or two.
My wife used to say it was because of all that metal I buried under
the ground in the backyard. I don't think so, but there must be some
explanation for it! I think it's simply that the front yard is on the
higher side and the backyard the lower side, where the clouds slide
down the valley.

TTUL - 73+ de Gary - KGØZP