John KD5YI said the following on 5/23/2011 8:06 PM:
On 5/23/2011 5:10 PM, Wimpie wrote:
On 22 mayo, 20:04, 'Captain' Kirk
wrote:
I'm living in a wooded area and am trying to hit our club repeater
reliably. It's cloudy now so I'm and getting a bit of ducting but I
have a lot of trees, mostly poplars, in the direct path. I would have a
line of sight if not for the trees as I'm up enough in altitude. I can
cut the trees, they're mine, but finding the right ones is difficult and
i don't want to waste the whole grove.

I go from keying the repeater with no intelligible signal to not being
able to hit it. Today I actually have an S meter reading due to the
clouds. I am currently using a J-pole and will put up a Yagi soon but
wonder if NVIS would work on 2m? I have only seen references to it
being applied in HF.

'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
N6SXR

Hello,

As you can see from the replies, we are in the speculation phase. If
you would like to receive more specialized feedback, you should
provide us with more details about the path, antenna height, nearby
obstacles, vegetation in between, etc (maybe some pictures).

As we are discussing 2 m wavelength, obstacles that may be optically
in the path may introduce less attenuation then expected, but
obstacles that are outside the optical path can still introduce
attenuation.

At 10m (33ft) from your antenna, the first Fresnel zone is about 9m
(30 ft) wide. In addition, the tree attenuation at these frequencies
is not that high. I think of 0.15 dB/m (I hope somebody can confirm
this). It can be less due to diffraction (bending) of the waves around
and over the trees.

I am almost sure, removing some poplar treetops at 10m from your
antenna or more will not change the situation from marginal to good
(because of the relative low attenuation).

Just to be curious, what type of poplar do you have at your site.

With kind regards,

Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl


According to his lat/lon numbers, he is 19 miles from the repeater and
its bearing is 185 degrees (ref true north) from him. The repeater is
about 2000 feet above him (not including the tower height). He is in a
valley that has little altitude variation until his signal reaches the
mountain.

This info is available from Google Earth using his numbers.

All of this leads me to think that something else is wrong. I can hit a
repeater 20 miles from me with 5 Watts and its antenna is on a 300 ft
tower. My antenna (half wave end-fed dipole) is on a 20 ft mast.

There may well be something wrong with the antenna. I don't have an SWR
meter handy but will try and borrow one from a club member. The J-pole
was beat around quite a bit over the years but since the radio has a
limiting circuit if the SWR is too far out of whack I am assuming it is
fairly close. It will transmit of full power. I'm using 75' of
professionally assembled RG8X which is required to get from the radio to
the antenna.


I have tons of deciduous trees between me and the repeater but the
signal is always solid with no noise on it (I don't have an S-meter) and
I have never had a report of noise on my signal until I tried to carry
on a conversation with 200 mw output power.

Not to make light, one of these poplars is tons in itself. They are
easily 70' tall and 24" diameter. I truly appreciate all the help from
everyone.


Cheers,
John


--
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
N6SXR

"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life here"

On Tue, 24 May 2011 08:24:09 -0700, 'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
wrote:

There may well be something wrong with the antenna. I don't have an SWR
meter handy but will try and borrow one from a club member. The J-pole
was beat around quite a bit over the years but since the radio has a
limiting circuit if the SWR is too far out of whack I am assuming it is
fairly close. It will transmit of full power.

The American Legion J-pole is rather critical, especially the dual
band flavor. The vertical section of electrical wire between the coax
connector and the part where it's wound around the driven element is
the tuning adjustment. Move it slightly and it's mistuned. You'll
need a VSWR meter to re-tune it.

I'm using 75' of
professionally assembled RG8X which is required to get from the radio to
the antenna.

RX-8x is 4.5dB loss per 100ft. Half your power is being lost in the
coax.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan wrote:

All of this leads me to think that something else is wrong. I can hit a
repeater 20 miles from me with 5 Watts and its antenna is on a 300 ft
tower. My antenna (half wave end-fed dipole) is on a 20 ft mast.

There may well be something wrong with the antenna. I don't have an SWR
meter handy but will try and borrow one from a club member. The J-pole
was beat around quite a bit over the years but since the radio has a
limiting circuit if the SWR is too far out of whack I am assuming it is
fairly close. It will transmit of full power.

One of the things to know about the American Legion J-pole (and most
vaguely-similar J-poles) is that it has no feedline or mount-point
isolation to speak of. The outside of the feedline coax, and any pipe
or tower or other metal to which you strap the antenna, become part of
the antenna's ground system, and can radiate a significant amount of
RF. This can interact with the RF coming from the main radiator, and
significantly alter the antenna's pattern... it no longer behaves like
an idealized half-wave vertical radiator.

In most installations this doesn't seem to matter all that much... but
it's possible that you've got some sort of weird interaction (feedline
emissions, reflections from the ground or nearby metal, etc.) which is
creating a null in the antenna's pattern in just the wrong direction.
If this is an issue (not all that likely but perhaps possible) you
could insulate the antenna from the mounting mask, and install a choke
(e.g. a few ferrite cores) on the feedline just below the antenna.

Also, the American Legion J-poles are subject to a couple of forms of
mechanical/electrical failure after a few years. The plastic
insulator which spaces apart the radiator and matching arm can degrade
(UV from sunlight is the main offendor, I believe) and crack, allowing
the two arms to change spacing. More subtly, the connection between
the two arms and the metal base can degrade... it's aluminum-to-
aluminum using a set-screw, and the connection can loosen and corrode.

It might be worth checking the spacer (replace if necessary), and
checking and tuning up the set-screw connections (squirt with Liquid
Wrench if necessary, loosen and remove, take out the rods, clean the
ends of the rods and the mounting holes in the place, dab with NoAlOx
or a similar corrosion-blocker, reassemble and tighten).

I'm using 75' of
professionally assembled RG8X which is required to get from the radio to
the antenna.

That's probably costing you about half of your power (assuming a
typical RG8X-type coax). Some lower-loss types (e.g. LMR-240 are
better than this.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On 5/24/2011 2:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:


I'm using 75' of
professionally assembled RG8X which is required to get from the radio to
the antenna.

That's probably costing you about half of your power (assuming a
typical RG8X-type coax). Some lower-loss types (e.g. LMR-240 are
better than this.


The results are all over the map. A piece of Cable TV cable might not
be a bad choice, if you can scrounge one. The 75 ohms probably isn't a
big deal.

At 144 MHz, bigger in diameter almost always beats fancier dielectric
(that is, the .405 inch RG-8, RG-213 flavors will usually beat any of
the quarter inch cables (RG-6, RG-8X, LMR240, etc.) because dielectric
losses aren't a big driver.. it's the IR loss in the center conductor.
RG-11, for instance, has less than 1.2dB loss for a matched 75 foot
line, and for the 1.5:1 mismatch, the loss only goes up 0.1 dB. (RG-11
type coax has a solid dielectric, and is pretty darn rugged stuff)

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB

On 5/24/2011 6:11 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
On 5/24/2011 2:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:


I'm using 75' of
professionally assembled RG8X which is required to get from the radio to
the antenna.

That's probably costing you about half of your power (assuming a
typical RG8X-type coax). Some lower-loss types (e.g. LMR-240 are
better than this.


The results are all over the map. A piece of Cable TV cable might not be
a bad choice, if you can scrounge one. The 75 ohms probably isn't a big
deal.

At 144 MHz, bigger in diameter almost always beats fancier dielectric
(that is, the .405 inch RG-8, RG-213 flavors will usually beat any of
the quarter inch cables (RG-6, RG-8X, LMR240, etc.) because dielectric
losses aren't a big driver.. it's the IR loss in the center conductor.
RG-11, for instance, has less than 1.2dB loss for a matched 75 foot
line, and for the 1.5:1 mismatch, the loss only goes up 0.1 dB. (RG-11
type coax has a solid dielectric, and is pretty darn rugged stuff)

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB


Huh? 75 ft of RG-11 has almost 8dB of loss at 146MHz. 75 ft of LMR240
has 9.7dB of loss at 146 MHz.

I won't go through your entire list.

Check out http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php

Cheers,
John

"John KD5YI" wrote in message
...

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB


Huh? 75 ft of RG-11 has almost 8dB of loss at 146MHz. 75 ft of LMR240 has
9.7dB of loss at 146 MHz.

I won't go through your entire list.

Check out http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php

Cheers,
John


John you need to see where you went wrong. The numbers Jim listed are
either correct or very close. I did not bother to do the calculations, but
looking at a 100 foot chart, the numbers are very close and no where near
the numbers you have.

I thought you may have looked at the web page and missed it defauls to
meters, but that does not seem to be the case to me.

On 5/24/2011 8:08 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"John wrote in message
...

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB


Huh? 75 ft of RG-11 has almost 8dB of loss at 146MHz. 75 ft of LMR240 has
9.7dB of loss at 146 MHz.

I won't go through your entire list.

Check out http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php

Cheers,
John


John you need to see where you went wrong. The numbers Jim listed are
either correct or very close. I did not bother to do the calculations, but
looking at a 100 foot chart, the numbers are very close and no where near
the numbers you have.

I thought you may have looked at the web page and missed it defauls to
meters, but that does not seem to be the case to me.

You are correct, Ralph, and I apologize to the group for my error. I did
indeed put meters rather than feet into the calculator.

Again, my apologies, and thanks, Ralph, for correcting me.

Cheers,
John

On 5/24/2011 8:08 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"John wrote in message
...

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB


Huh? 75 ft of RG-11 has almost 8dB of loss at 146MHz. 75 ft of LMR240 has
9.7dB of loss at 146 MHz.

I won't go through your entire list.

Check out http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php

Cheers,
John


John you need to see where you went wrong. The numbers Jim listed are
either correct or very close. I did not bother to do the calculations, but
looking at a 100 foot chart, the numbers are very close and no where near
the numbers you have.

I thought you may have looked at the web page and missed it defauls to
meters, but that does not seem to be the case to me.



According to the loss calculator at Times Microwave the loss at 144 MHz
for a 75 length of LMR 240 is 2.952. 100 METERS is 9.687.

Perhaps you misread.

tom
K0TAR

On 5/25/2011 8:44 PM, tom wrote:
On 5/24/2011 8:08 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"John wrote in message
...

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB


Huh? 75 ft of RG-11 has almost 8dB of loss at 146MHz. 75 ft of LMR240
has
9.7dB of loss at 146 MHz.

I won't go through your entire list.

Check out http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php

Cheers,
John


John you need to see where you went wrong. The numbers Jim listed are
either correct or very close. I did not bother to do the calculations,
but
looking at a 100 foot chart, the numbers are very close and no where near
the numbers you have.

I thought you may have looked at the web page and missed it defauls to
meters, but that does not seem to be the case to me.



According to the loss calculator at Times Microwave the loss at 144 MHz
for a 75 length of LMR 240 is 2.952. 100 METERS is 9.687.

Perhaps you misread.

tom
K0TAR


Oops, needed to do this one level up. Should have responded to John.

tom
K0TAR

On 5/24/2011 5:17 PM, John KD5YI wrote:
On 5/24/2011 6:11 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
On 5/24/2011 2:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:


I'm using 75' of
professionally assembled RG8X which is required to get from the
radio to
the antenna.

That's probably costing you about half of your power (assuming a
typical RG8X-type coax). Some lower-loss types (e.g. LMR-240 are
better than this.


The results are all over the map. A piece of Cable TV cable might not be
a bad choice, if you can scrounge one. The 75 ohms probably isn't a big
deal.

At 144 MHz, bigger in diameter almost always beats fancier dielectric
(that is, the .405 inch RG-8, RG-213 flavors will usually beat any of
the quarter inch cables (RG-6, RG-8X, LMR240, etc.) because dielectric
losses aren't a big driver.. it's the IR loss in the center conductor.
RG-11, for instance, has less than 1.2dB loss for a matched 75 foot
line, and for the 1.5:1 mismatch, the loss only goes up 0.1 dB. (RG-11
type coax has a solid dielectric, and is pretty darn rugged stuff)

75 feet, at 144 MHz
LMR240 - 2.2 dB
Belden 8215 (RG-6A) - 2.5 dB
Belden 9258 (RG-8x) - 3.0 dB
Tandy RG-8x - 3.1 dB
Belden 8267 (RG-213) - 1.9 dB
Wireman CQ110 (RG-213) - 1.6 dB
Belden 8237 (RG-8) - 1.7 dB
belden 8213 (RG-11) = 1.2dB


Huh? 75 ft of RG-11 has almost 8dB of loss at 146MHz. 75 ft of LMR240
has 9.7dB of loss at 146 MHz.

I won't go through your entire list.

Check out http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php


That's what I used..
Sure you got feet and not meters?

B9219, 75ft, 146 MHz = 1.811dB