in a never ending quest to acquire antenna knowledge
i've been doing some reading of a paper back book
by a well know antenna guru who's now a sk.
he claims that if a vertical antenna is fed at it's base
with a parallel resonant l/c circuit and tapped on the
inductor to to get an appropriate swr match, it's
rf ground can be no more than a 3'x3' screen combined
with a rod in the ground.

in my mind, this seems to be something for nothing. if true
why do i read about the importance of having a number
of radials?

questions, comments, pronouncements from the gurus on high
most welcome. brickbats & complaints, etc 2&1 /dev/null

larry
kd5foy

larry d clark wrote:

in a never ending quest to acquire antenna knowledge
i've been doing some reading of a paper back book
by a well know antenna guru who's now a sk.
he claims that if a vertical antenna is fed at it's base
with a parallel resonant l/c circuit and tapped on the
inductor to to get an appropriate swr match, it's
rf ground can be no more than a 3'x3' screen combined
with a rod in the ground.

in my mind, this seems to be something for nothing. if true
why do i read about the importance of having a number
of radials?

questions, comments, pronouncements from the gurus on high
most welcome. brickbats & complaints, etc 2&1 /dev/null

Two words - coil loss. A center-fed 1/2WL vertical would
probably be better - no coil.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Double check the antenna details. I suspect you are describing the
matching circuit for a 1/2 or 5/8 antenna, not a 1/4 wave antenna.

DD

larry d clark wrote:
in a never ending quest to acquire antenna knowledge
i've been doing some reading of a paper back book
by a well know antenna guru who's now a sk.
he claims that if a vertical antenna is fed at it's base
with a parallel resonant l/c circuit and tapped on the
inductor to to get an appropriate swr match, it's
rf ground can be no more than a 3'x3' screen combined
with a rod in the ground.

in my mind, this seems to be something for nothing. if true
why do i read about the importance of having a number
of radials?

questions, comments, pronouncements from the gurus on high
most welcome. brickbats & complaints, etc 2&1 /dev/null

larry
kd5foy

Been there, done that, many times. If the vertical is
a half wave, you can just use the shield of the coax
feeding it as the little bit of counterpoise you need.
In direct A/B comparisons to quarter wave verticals
over good ground screens, the no ground vertical
half wave is so close in performance you can't measure
the difference.

Coil loss is not an issue if you use the proper coil.

Rick N6RK


"larry d clark" wrote in message
. com...
in a never ending quest to acquire antenna knowledge
i've been doing some reading of a paper back book
by a well know antenna guru who's now a sk.
he claims that if a vertical antenna is fed at it's base
with a parallel resonant l/c circuit and tapped on the
inductor to to get an appropriate swr match, it's
rf ground can be no more than a 3'x3' screen combined
with a rod in the ground.

in my mind, this seems to be something for nothing. if true
why do i read about the importance of having a number
of radials?

questions, comments, pronouncements from the gurus on high
most welcome. brickbats & complaints, etc 2&1 /dev/null

larry
kd5foy

Cecil Moore wrote in message ...


Two words - coil loss. A center-fed 1/2WL vertical would
probably be better - no coil.

Probably fed, the coil loss is very low. The version I prefer is a
single turn coil, and a coax capacitor if needed. Very low coil
losses. I've used loads of the base fed half waves. Also have used a
center fed 1/2 wave. Never could notice any real difference between
the two in performance. The only advantage to a center fed I could
see, is possible use on other bands using a tuner. Many people do this
with the center fed 1/2 wave A-99 CB antennas. Trying to work multi
bands with a base fed antenna is not going to work very well. But I
don't recommend that anyway... MK

People like to simplify things, to make them easier to understand. They
read that radials are important, but don't understand why, and apply
that "sound bite" to all vertical antennas. (Or even to all antennas.)
This sort of binary thinking -- or rather, non-thinking, is commonly
applied to politics and a vast number of other fields besides antenna
theory.

When you put power into an antenna, a current flows out of one conductor
of the feedline to supply that power. An equal and opposite current
flows into the other conductor. In the case of a grounded vertical, this
means that whatever current flows into the base of the antenna also
flows through the ground -- where the feedline shield is connected. Due
to the resistance of the ground, this results in I^2 * R power loss. If
the antenna's radiation resistance is comparable to or lower than the
ground resistance, the fraction of applied power that's lost is
significant, so it's common to lower the ground resistance by using
radials. Radials become increasingly important as the vertical gets
shorter, because a short vertical has a lower radiation resistance.
However, the feedpoint radiation resistance of a half wave vertical is
very high -- typically higher than the ground resistance. For a given
power input, a relatively small current flows into the base of the
antenna, so very little current flows in the ground. Consequently, the
ground loss is low, and there's no need to decrease its resistance with
radials.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

larry d clark wrote:

in a never ending quest to acquire antenna knowledge
i've been doing some reading of a paper back book
by a well know antenna guru who's now a sk.
he claims that if a vertical antenna is fed at it's base
with a parallel resonant l/c circuit and tapped on the
inductor to to get an appropriate swr match, it's
rf ground can be no more than a 3'x3' screen combined
with a rod in the ground.

in my mind, this seems to be something for nothing. if true
why do i read about the importance of having a number
of radials?

questions, comments, pronouncements from the gurus on high
most welcome. brickbats & complaints, etc 2&1 /dev/null

larry
kd5foy

When you put power into an antenna, a current flows out of one conductor
of the feedline to supply that power. An equal and opposite current
flows into the other conductor. In the case of a grounded vertical, this
means that whatever current flows into the base of the antenna also
flows through the ground -- where the feedline shield is connected. Due
to the resistance of the ground, this results in I^2 * R power loss. If
the antenna's radiation resistance is comparable to or lower than the
ground resistance, the fraction of applied power that's lost is
significant, so it's common to lower the ground resistance by using
radials. Radials become increasingly important as the vertical gets
shorter, because a short vertical has a lower radiation resistance.
However, the feedpoint radiation resistance of a half wave vertical is
very high -- typically higher than the ground resistance. For a given
power input, a relatively small current flows into the base of the
antenna, so very little current flows in the ground. Consequently, the
ground loss is low, and there's no need to decrease its resistance with
radials.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy, I've always maintained that when I don't know that the ground
resistance is zero, I want as little current flowing in it as possible. My
inverted "L" is a voltage fed half wave on 160 meters, about 70 feet up and
170 feet out courtesy of a couple of strategically placed Oaks . I have
measured that feed impedance as being in excess of 2600 ohms and feed it
with a remotely tuned "L" network. I used it for several years just fed
against 60 feet of 6 inch well casing, and then, bowing to conventional
wisdom as advertised on 1850 KHz, added an elevated counterpoise beneath the
whole thing. (About 12 feet in the air) I didn't notice any change in signal
reports, but that impedance sure changed a lot. Did I change something
besides the ground resistance?

Regards

W4ZCB

On Thu, 20 May 2004 08:40:47 -0700, Roy Lewallen
wrote:

However, the feedpoint radiation resistance of a half wave vertical is
very high -- typically higher than the ground resistance. For a given
power input, a relatively small current flows into the base of the
antenna, so very little current flows in the ground. Consequently, the
ground loss is low, and there's no need to decrease its resistance with
radials.

From a practical view point you are correct, but for those who wish to
nit-pick adding radials will, according to NEC, result in an increase
in performance.

At about 0.35-wavelength from the base of the ½-wave monopole the
ground current peaks ( Brown, Lewis and Eastein) . The ground
losses are just further away from the base of the antenna.

Modeling I found that comparing a full-bore ground system (120
half-wavelength radials) to a single eight-foot ground rod (average
ground) the difference reported was about 1 dB.

Considering the cost difference, for me, there are more practical ways
of gaining 1 dB.

Danny, K6MHE

On Thu, 20 May 2004 09:30:07 -0700, Dan Richardson
wrote:

Modeling I found that comparing a full-bore ground system (120
half-wavelength radials) to a single eight-foot ground rod (average
ground) the difference reported was about 1 dB.

Hi Danny,

I made the same comparison at 40M. The difference between 120
(quarterwave) radials and 1 amounts to 0.1dB Clip that one down by a
tenth and the difference climbs to an astronomical 0.3dB.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

In the inverted L or any antenna with a horizontal wire, there's
coupling between the wire and ground. The field from the horizontal wire
induces current in the ground under it. If the wire is low, the loss
produced by this current can be substantial. By putting an elevated wire
under the horizontal wire, you've changed this coupling to the ground,
plus you've introduced a new conductor into the antenna. Mutual coupling
between this conductor and the other wires will change the impedance.

Modeling will give a lot of insight into what all is going on.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Harold E. Johnson wrote:

Roy, I've always maintained that when I don't know that the ground
resistance is zero, I want as little current flowing in it as possible. My
inverted "L" is a voltage fed half wave on 160 meters, about 70 feet up and
170 feet out courtesy of a couple of strategically placed Oaks . I have
measured that feed impedance as being in excess of 2600 ohms and feed it
with a remotely tuned "L" network. I used it for several years just fed
against 60 feet of 6 inch well casing, and then, bowing to conventional
wisdom as advertised on 1850 KHz, added an elevated counterpoise beneath the
whole thing. (About 12 feet in the air) I didn't notice any change in signal
reports, but that impedance sure changed a lot. Did I change something
besides the ground resistance?

Regards

W4ZCB