Jeffdeham wrote:
I had exactly the opposite results. It was 2-3 S units better at low
angles of radiation compared to my low dipole. I've heard other
experiences like this too. I just wonder if there some part of antenna
theory that's missing that could explain why that happens. Murphy's
law, blind luck, who knows. 8-)

The vertically polarized noise in my neighborhood is the real killer
of verticals.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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The vertically polarized noise in my neighborhood is the real killer
of verticals.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp




Hmmm,
all the noisey appliances in the neighborhood are vertically polarized?
Trolling for another argument "threat" :-?

Yuri

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
The vertically polarized noise in my neighborhood is the real killer
of verticals.

all the noisey appliances in the neighborhood are vertically polarized?

A very large power transformer mounted on a pole at the edge of my
property has a 35 foot ground wire running down the pole about 100 ft
from my vertical. I suspect that is the source of the vertically
polarized noise.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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all the noisey appliances in the neighborhood are vertically polarized?

A very large power transformer mounted on a pole at the edge of my
property has a 35 foot ground wire running down the pole about 100 ft
from my vertical. I suspect that is the source of the vertically
polarized noise.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



and no horizontal wires attached to it?
Is transformer producing noise? Or bad connections, arcing?
Mabee vertical antenna due to its pattern is "seeing" more noise than your
ladder fed wunderdipole?

I think there is a major misconception that verticals are more sensitive to
noise because the noise is "vertically polarized". Man made, appliance or
otherwise produced noise is "all kinds" polarized. It is the antenna's location
and radiation pattern that determines the amount of noise or S/N pick up.

Yuri

In article ,
Yuri Blanarovich wrote:

I think there is a major misconception that verticals are more sensitive to
noise because the noise is "vertically polarized". Man made, appliance or
otherwise produced noise is "all kinds" polarized. It is the antenna's location
and radiation pattern that determines the amount of noise or S/N pick up.

Well... yes and no (I think).

As I understand it, ground-wave / surface-wave propagation occurs for
vertically-polarized signals (or signal components), but not for
horizontally-polarized signals (or components). Even if manmade noise
is polarized in all planes with equal (or randomly distributed)
polarization senses, only the vertically polarized portion of it will
travel via groundwave propagation.

So, I suspect that the noise-proneness of vertical HF antennas
compared to horizontal dipoles, probably results from a "double
whammy". The horizontal antennas aren't exposed to anywhere near as
much energy propagating via groundwave (because horizontally-polarized
noise doesn't travel well in that mode), and they aren't as sensitive
to it because they often have fairly high radiation angles with a
substantial null towards the horizon.

The vertical antennas are hit with more noise energy, and due to their
low radiation angle they're pretty good at picking it up.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
I think there is a major misconception that verticals are more sensitive to
noise because the noise is "vertically polarized". Man made, appliance or
otherwise produced noise is "all kinds" polarized. It is the antenna's location
and radiation pattern that determines the amount of noise or S/N pick up.

I'm just reporting what conditions exist at my QTH. There is approximately
two S-units higher noise on the vertical than on the horizontal. After weeks
of A/B comparisons, there was never a time or signal where the vertical appreciably
beat the horizontal. There were a few times when they were nearly equal. Two extra
S-units of noise is hard to overcome. I really wish the outcome had been different.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"I`m just reporting conditions at my QTH."

Every installation is unique, but horizontal power lines are often long
in terms of h-f waves. At a distance, one receives radiation from the
wires which tends to make a zero sum. This happens even though the h-f
is likely common-mode on the wires.

Every power pole is supposed to be grounded. Radiation induced and other
spurious currents in the power lines drains to the earth through this
multitude of earth connections. Though the phase of these currents to
earth varies in the various ground wires, you are often closer to one
than the others. Radiation phase from that particular ground wire is
usually not a jumble at a given frequency due to limited height of the
pole. Your proximity to one pole often derives from being served with
electricity from that pole.

As horizontally polarized signals don`t propagate via ground wave and
suffer extreme attenuation due to cross-polarization when sweeping
vertical wires, inducing little energy in them, and due to vertically
polarized radiation from vertical wires on power poles, vertically
polarized radiation is all you get from the poles.

For an Idea of r-f currents in the ground wire on a power pole, explore
close to the pole the signals it radiates with a transistor battery
operated portable radio. They can be intense.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI