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#81
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Walter Maxwell wrote:
Cecil, please read me in the first paragraph. By Steve's own words he says the re-reflected wave must equal the reflected wave. No, he says that is a fallacy. He says the re-reflected wave equals the reflected wave multiplied by the reflection coefficient. His example is: reflected power = 33.33W, re-reflected power = 8.33W re-reflected power = 33.33W(rho^2) = 33.33W(0.25) = 8.33W Here's what Dr. Best said in his QEX article, Part 3: "When two forward-traveling waves add, general superposition theory ... require(s) that the total forward traveling voltage be the vector sum of the individual forward-traveling voltages such that VFtotal = V1 + V2." He clearly implies that V2 is a forward-traveling wave and it is. Numerically, it is equal to the voltage reflected from the load multiplied by the reverse reflection coefficient. In S-parameter terms, V2 is the s22(a2) term. Concerning tau, I've seen it described in an HP App Note, which I didn't bring to Michigan, but I've never used it. However, if the power transmission coefficient is (1 - rho^2) the coefficient is 0.75 for rho = 0.5. Therefore, for 100 w forward only 75 w are delivered. This condition is shown valid experimentally. Yes, 100W(0.75) is perfectly consistent with 70.7V(1.5)^2/150 where Z0=150 ohms Now let's use tau = 1 + rho as the voltage transmission coefficient. I interpret this to mean tau x input voltage = forward voltage arriving at a mismatched load. No, no, no. Mistaken interpretation. tau x input voltage = V1 (not the total forward voltage) rho x reflected voltage = V2 (re-reflected) V1 + V2 = forward voltage arriving at a mismatched load V1 is proportional to the S-parameter term, s21(a1) where s21 is the forward-transmission coefficient. V2 is proportional to the S-parameter term, s22(a2) where s22 is the reverse-reflection coefficient. b2 is the total forward voltage arriving at a mismatched load. VFtotal = V1 + V2 is virtually identical to b2 = s21(a1) + s22(a2) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#82
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:56:04 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:
Walter Maxwell wrote: Cecil, please read me in the first paragraph. By Steve's own words he says the re-reflected wave must equal the reflected wave. No, he says that is a fallacy. He says the re-reflected wave equals the reflected wave multiplied by the reflection coefficient. His example is: reflected power = 33.33W, re-reflected power = 8.33W But when the system is matched the reflection coefficient is 1.0. re-reflected power = 33.33W(rho^2) = 33.33W(0.25) = 8.33W Here's what Dr. Best said in his QEX article, Part 3: "When two forward-traveling waves add, general superposition theory ... require(s) that the total forward traveling voltage be the vector sum of the individual forward-traveling voltages such that VFtotal = V1 + V2." He clearly implies that V2 is a forward-traveling wave and it is. Numerically, it is equal to the voltage reflected from the load multiplied by the reverse reflection coefficient. In S-parameter terms, V2 is the s22(a2) term. Cecil, it is clear that you are not reading my posts!!! You quoted Steve above, but I quoted the SAME quote earlier, explaining that he is WRONG. Please reread my quote. General superposition theory does NOT require that the forward voltage be the vector sum of the individual forward-traveling voltages. When are you going to understand that that superposition yields the standing wave, NOT the forward wave? I've told you this over and over again, but you apparently aren't listening. Cecil, please go to Johnson as I pointed out earlier and become educated as to where Steve screwed up. Walt |
#83
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Walter Maxwell wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:56:04 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: Walter Maxwell wrote: Cecil, please read me in the first paragraph. By Steve's own words he says the re-reflected wave must equal the reflected wave. No, he says that is a fallacy. He says the re-reflected wave equals the reflected wave multiplied by the reflection coefficient. His example is: reflected power = 33.33W, re-reflected power = 8.33W But when the system is matched the reflection coefficient is 1.0. But if rho = 1.0, then tau = 2.0. Wasn't it 1.5 just a minute ago? 73, Jim AC6XG |
#84
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Walter Maxwell wrote:
But when the system is matched the reflection coefficient is 1.0. Not in an S-parameter analysis which is essentially what Dr. Best is doing. He is dealing with the PHYSICAL reflection coefficient, (Z2-Z1)/Z2+Z1), not the virtual reflection coefficient based on reflected power being zero. This may be the source of the misunderstanding between you two. His reflection coefficients, like the S-parameter reflection coefficients, don't change from startup to steady-state. They remain constant even when no signal is present. General superposition theory does NOT require that the forward voltage be the vector sum of the individual forward-traveling voltages. Superposition of two individual forward-traveling voltages requires that the sum be the vector sum as long as the interference energy requirements are met. When are you going to understand that that superposition yields the standing wave, NOT the forward wave? I've told you this over and over again, but you apparently aren't listening. I am listening, Walt, and still telling you that you are wrong about that concept. Superposition of two waves traveling in opposite directions yields the standing wave. Superposition of two coherent waves traveling in the same direction yields DESTRUCTIVE/CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE, not standing waves. Cecil, please go to Johnson as I pointed out earlier and become educated as to where Steve screwed up. I know where Steve screwed up, Walt, and he did screw up. But it wasn't in the area of an S-parameter analysis in the forward direction. It was in the rearward direction that he screwed up royally. In the afore-mentioned example, the four powers associated with the four superposition voltages are P1, P2, P3, and P4. P1=75W, P2=8.33W, P3=25W, and P4=25W. P1+P3 = 100W = generated power P2+P4 = 33.33W = power reflected from the load Dr. Best tell us that 75W+8.33W+2*SQRT(75*8.33)=133.33W and that is mathematically true. What Dr. Best doesn't tell us is that 2*SQRT(75*8.33) = P3+P4 and that they are the interference component powers from classical optics theory. You are grouping the powers together in this manner, (P1+P3)+(P2+P4)=133.33W and that is perfectly true mathematically. Both of you are doing essentially the same thing but neither one of you realizes it. You guys are two inches apart and don't know it. It feels like I am listening to two flatlanders argue about the third dimension. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#85
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Jim Kelley wrote:
Walter Maxwell wrote: But when the system is matched the reflection coefficient is 1.0. But if rho = 1.0, then tau = 2.0. Wasn't it 1.5 just a minute ago? Dr. Best is using physical reflection coefficients, aka an S-parameter analysis, which are never 1.0 in a system with a mismatched load. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#86
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:28:01 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:
Walter Maxwell wrote: But when the system is matched the reflection coefficient is 1.0. Not in an S-parameter analysis which is essentially what Dr. Best is doing. He is dealing with the PHYSICAL reflection coefficient, (Z2-Z1)/Z2+Z1), not the virtual reflection coefficient based on reflected power being zero. This may be the source of the misunderstanding between you two. His reflection coefficients, like the S-parameter reflection coefficients, don't change from startup to steady-state. They remain constant even when no signal is present. General superposition theory does NOT require that the forward voltage be the vector sum of the individual forward-traveling voltages. Superposition of two individual forward-traveling voltages requires that the sum be the vector sum as long as the interference energy requirements are met. When are you going to understand that that superposition yields the standing wave, NOT the forward wave? I've told you this over and over again, but you apparently aren't listening. I am listening, Walt, and still telling you that you are wrong about that concept. Superposition of two waves traveling in opposite directions yields the standing wave. Superposition of two coherent waves traveling in the same direction yields DESTRUCTIVE/CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE, not standing waves. Cecil, please go to Johnson as I pointed out earlier and become educated as to where Steve screwed up. I know where Steve screwed up, Walt, and he did screw up. But it wasn't in the area of an S-parameter analysis in the forward direction. It was in the rearward direction that he screwed up royally. Cecil, you're not even close to knowing where Steve screwed up. And you won't know until you follow my directions and go to Johnson and read what I said to read. I can't understand why you refuse to go in that direction. Because you refuse we're going around in circles. This has to stop. What Johnson and I are trying to tell you is that the superposition of the source voltage and the re-reflected voltages DO NOT establish the forward voltage. Steve used Johnson's Eq for determining the standing wave voltage at any point on the line incorrectly as the forward re-reflected voltage wave V2. THIS IS WHERE HE SCREWED UP, CECIL., SCREWING UP THE ENTIRE ARTICLE !! Walt |
#87
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Walter Maxwell wrote:
What Johnson and I are trying to tell you is that the superposition of the source voltage and the re-reflected voltages DO NOT establish the forward voltage. If Johnson really said that, he screwed up because he is in direct contradiction to the S-parameter analysis described in Ramo, Whinnery, and Van Duzer in _Fields_and_Waves_in_Communications_Electronics_, (c) 1965, page 603, Section 11.09 "Scattering and Transmission Coefficients". You and Dr. Best obtain the same component powers. You just group them differently. You guys are two inches away from agreeing. Please provide the location of the Johnson quote details again. I sort by date and cannot find your Johnson reference even when sorting by threads. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#88
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:52:15 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:
Walter Maxwell wrote: What Johnson and I are trying to tell you is that the superposition of the source voltage and the re-reflected voltages DO NOT establish the forward voltage. If Johnson really said that, he screwed up because he is in direct contradiction to the S-parameter analysis described in Ramo, Whinnery, and Van Duzer in _Fields_and_Waves_in_Communications_Electronics_, (c) 1965, page 603, Section 11.09 "Scattering and Transmission Coefficients". No Cecil, Johnson didn't screw up. Incidentally, the equation in question is his Eq. 4.23, derived on Pages 98 and 99, and displayed on Page 100. Steve screwed up because, as I've been repeating, he misinterpreted the equation to determine the forward wave instead of the standing wave. From all of your statements so far, it appears you may have misunderstood what the forward wave really is. Here's a clue. When a tuner is properly adjusted in matching a 50-ohm line to a 150 + j0 resistance and the output voltage of the source is 70.71 v. the forward voltage is 70.71 x 1.1547 = 81.65 v. Do you recognize it or know where the 1.1547 came from ? Steve doesn't have a clue. Walt |
#89
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Cecil,
I am happy to see that we are in agreement on this long-standing argument. I explained this to Walt in some private e-mails about 18 months ago, and I wrote similar explanations in this group. I was vilified by both Walt and you. I will summarize once again. Both the Walter Maxwell model and the Steve Best model for this transmission line problem work correctly. They are internally self consistent, and they give the same physical answers. They obey the standard laws of physics and mathematics. However it is not possible to mix-and-match the models, using equations and definitions from one model in the other. Walt continues to mis-read Steve Best's QEX articles. He needs to throw away all of his pre-conceived definitions about the meaning of specific Vx components and read exactly what Steve wrote. 73, Gene W4SZ Cecil Moore wrote: You and Dr. Best obtain the same component powers. You just group them differently. You guys are two inches away from agreeing. |
#90
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Walter Maxwell wrote:
No Cecil, Johnson didn't screw up. Incidentally, the equation in question is his Eq. 4.23, derived on Pages 98 and 99, and displayed on Page 100. Steve screwed up because, as I've been repeating, he misinterpreted the equation to determine the forward wave instead of the standing wave. On page 99, in between equations 4.22 and 4.23 is an equation presented by Johnson that is close to Steve's equation to which you are objecting. From all of your statements so far, it appears you may have misunderstood what the forward wave really is. Here's a clue. When a tuner is properly adjusted in matching a 50-ohm line to a 150 + j0 resistance and the output voltage of the source is 70.71 v. the forward voltage is 70.71 x 1.1547 = 81.65 v. Do you recognize it or know where the 1.1547 came from ? Steve doesn't have a clue. The forward voltage wave equals s21(a1)+s22(a2) which is virtually the same as V1+V2 because V1/[SQRT(Z0)] + V2/[SQRT(Z0)] = s21(a1) + s22(a2). It's the old one-to-one correspondence rule. As I said before, Walt, the 1WL section of 50 ohm line in Steve's example is *completely irrelevant* to the discussion. Steve only included that line so the forward/reflected power could be measured and the impedance reproduced. As long as you allow that 1WL of 50 ohm line to enter into your thinking and calculations, you will never understand what he was trying to say. Please remove the 1WL of 50 ohm line and please re-think your position. All the conditions discussed by Steve occur at the *MATCH POINT* which, I think you will agree, is NOT on the 50 ohm line. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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