"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act
as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has
the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an
earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that,
Marconi was wrong.

Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking
about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your
definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis.

This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong.

The original Marconi's claim was:

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act
as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has
the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an
earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that,
Marconi was wrong.

Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking
about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your
definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis.

This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong.

The original Marconi's claim was:

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S*


Yes, the original claim is wrong.
It is wrong.
Wrong.

But you are not prepared to accept that.
Please stop arguing.

On 4/16/2012 3:40 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Is the original claim wrong?S*


Let me try this again in a repeating manner you might possibly be
able to understand. I'm surely not going to hold my breath waiting for
viable indications of comprehension, but here goes..

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes, the man was wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!!!!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
But he had an excuse.. It was 1909.
Good grief... It does boggle the mind.. :|

In message , NM5K writes
On 4/16/2012 3:40 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Is the original claim wrong?S*


Let me try this again in a repeating manner you might possibly be
able to understand. I'm surely not going to hold my breath waiting for
viable indications of comprehension, but here goes..

Yes.

Yes, the man was wrong!

But he had an excuse.. It was 1909.
Good grief... It does boggle the mind.. :|

In the early days of radio, most experimenters tended to think of
antennas as working by RF alternating currents charging (and
discharging) a big capacitor in the sky via a long, vertical wire (or
multiple wires, to increase the capacity, and to minimise losses).

To push and pull the current in and out of the capacitor, it was
necessary to have a good, solid, zero-potential reference point, and the
best one available was ground/earth (or, at sea, the hull of the ship).
So, for the types of antennas being experimented with (and used) at the
time, Marconi was absolutely correct.

Also, it wouldn't have taken them long to appreciate the benefits of
bringing the antenna system to resonance on the frequency the operators
wanted (rather than it simply being an act-of-God and hope-for-the-best
affair).

But note that with Marconi's famous crossing the Atlantic experiment, I
believe there is no documentation of exactly what frequency was used.
Instead of it being something extremely low (which is what they
expected), it is now thought that the signal which travelled 3000 miles
would have been one of the many harmonic resonances of the antenna, as
this would have been excited by the extremely wide band of frequencies
created by the spark transmitter. Knowing now what frequencies cross the
Atlantic in daylight, the signal might have been as high as 10 or 15MHz
(frequencies which Marconi only dreamt about using!).
--
Ian

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:15:29 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

I am not arguing.

Very well. You are debating.

I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as
the counterpoise for the monopole."

Not true. At higher frequencies, one can use the grounded coax cable
feed to act as a crude counterpoise.

I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the
counterpoise in form of chassis.

No. You claim that because the monopole requires a ground, therefore
all antennas require a ground. That's too general a claim and is not
true, even for a monopole. For example, a very common antenna type at
2.4GHz is a "meandering 1/4 wave" antenna, which uses no ground:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/laptops/slides/compaq-2120us.html
Another example is the metal rim of the iPhone 4G. It's an untuned,
ungrounded, end-fed, monopole in the form of parts of a metal frame.

There's also a large distinction between a "ground" and a
counterpoise. A counterpoise is a part of the antenna system and may
be earth ground in some situations. In RF, a ground is a connection
to the earth. While there is some overlap in these definitions, your
claim, that all antennas require a ground, was presumably referring to
the earth ground, as described by your examples of broadcast towers
and static buildups.

For a satellite, there's may be a counterpoise, but no (earth) ground.
The counterpoise is unlikely because most satellites use circular
polarization (to eliminate sensitivity to orientation), using spiral
wound or pyramid shaped antenna structures that are matched to
whatever the coax cable provides. The skin of the satellite is
crammed with other antennas, solar cells, and sensors, that finding an
area sufficiently large to be considered a metal counterpoise, is
impossible.

The only thing really necessary for an antenna to function is the
radiating element. Everything else is optional and depends on what
you're trying to accomplish.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...

They are not wrong a such; your quote is about "AM broadcasters", which
is
normally (and incorrectly) meant to mean 'long& medium Wave'
broadcasters. Because for the long wavelengths involved many such
broadcasters choose to use vertical monopoles for antennas, and for
those
monopoles to work efficiently they do indeed require a good ground
system.
(These were the systems that Marconi was referring to).

If there is sufficient space a dipole could be used which would *NOT*
require the ground system.

That in Warsaw required the ground system:
""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw
radio
mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built."

S*


As I said in one of my other posts: That does not describe a 'normal'
balanced dipole, which is fed at the centre. It is the description of a
very special case where a 1/2 wave length radiator is 'end-fed'. It is not
what people normally mean when the refer to a dipole, although it is a 1/2
wavelength radiator fed against ground

"Physic Principle An End Fed Half Wave Length Antenna is a variation of the
much more common half wave length dipole antenna. When an antenna that is
one half wave length long has RF energy applied to it at its resonant
frequency a standing wave develops on it."

The earth is connected at the node. "A node is a point along a standing wave
where the wave has minimal amplitude."

Does ""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw
radio mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built." needs the
ground?
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Does ""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw
radio mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built." needs the
ground?
S*

It does NOT require a ground to be functioning, assuming the energy is
coupled into the radiator using some other way than an end-feed.

Of course it would be stupid to erect an over 600m high mast and not
connect it to ground, but that is for reasons entirely unrelated to
its use as a transmitter antenna.

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Does ""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw
radio mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built." needs
the
ground?
S*

It does NOT require a ground to be functioning, assuming the energy is
coupled into the radiator using some other way than an end-feed.

Of course it would be stupid to erect an over 600m high mast and not
connect it to ground, but that is for reasons entirely unrelated to
its use as a transmitter antenna.

So Marconi was not stupid.
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Does ""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw
radio mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built." needs
the
ground?
S*

It does NOT require a ground to be functioning, assuming the energy is
coupled into the radiator using some other way than an end-feed.

Of course it would be stupid to erect an over 600m high mast and not
connect it to ground, but that is for reasons entirely unrelated to
its use as a transmitter antenna.

So Marconi was not stupid.
S*

Marconi was wrong.

You are stupid. You cannot even grasp basic logic and reasoning.

When you read that a cow is an animal, you think that every animal
is a cow.

"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...


As I said in one of my other posts: That does not describe a 'normal'
balanced dipole, which is fed at the centre. It is the description of a
very special case where a 1/2 wave length radiator is 'end-fed'. It is
not
what people normally mean when the refer to a dipole, although it is a
1/2
wavelength radiator fed against ground

"Physic Principle An End Fed Half Wave Length Antenna is a variation of
the
much more common half wave length dipole antenna. When an antenna that is
one half wave length long has RF energy applied to it at its resonant
frequency a standing wave develops on it."

The earth is connected at the node. "A node is a point along a standing
wave
where the wave has minimal amplitude."

Does ""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw
radio mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built." needs
the
ground?
S*

No, the 1/2 wave radiator does not need a ground, however, because of the
way they chose to feed the 1/2 wave, the feed system does. If they had
chosen the insulate the tower half way up and feed it there no earth would
have been required at all.

The tower insulated half way up and feed there are the two monoples.
It is the array.
But such are in form of the two monopole mast 1/4 wave apart.

Will be better to end the discussion.
S*