In article ,
Irv Finkleman wrote:


I am not as concerned about a case of 'rf lip' as I am
about stray RF causing possible problems with the
neighbours on all sides of me, with all my electronic
toys such as computers, DVD players, the local
fire-alarm system and other such things. The last
thing I want to do is draw attention to the fact that I
am running a ham radio station from my suite until
I know I am not causing any problems.

Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!

So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Irv,

Your goals are certainly valid.

As far as preventing RF from going where you don't want it to... the
main issue MJF is talking about here is "conducted" RF. The RF energy
on the "ground" side of your antenna connector is going to flow
outwards through every conductive path available to it, including the
"counterpoise" side of your antenna arrangement, and anything
connected directly or indirectly to your rig's chassis (e.g. to the
power supply and then onto the third "ground" wire in the household
mains). The amount of current flowing through each of these paths
will depend on the RF impedance of the path, with more current flowing
through paths of lower impedance.

So, what you want is (probably) to have one or more counterpoise wires
whose RF impedance is as low as practical, at the frequency in
question. These could be quarter-wave wires, or they could be shorter
or longer wires with an "active ground" (which is essentially a simple
"antenna tuner" on the ground side, with an adjustable reactance to
cancel out some of the reactance of a non-quarterwave wire).

You can also help keep RF "where it belongs" by adding common-mode
chokes to your rig power cables, thus increasing the RF impedance of
this path and helping reduce the amount of current which is conducted
back into the building ground.

Another approach which may help, is to consider using an end-fed
half-wave antenna, with a specifically-wound matching coil system.
These are (in principle at least) largely ground-independent... the
low-impedance side of the matching coil provides good RF paths for
both the "hot" and "ground" sides of the antenna connection, and when
properly adjusted they don't dump much RF into the rig ground or
counterpoise.

These techniques may not help much, if at all, with *radiated* RF
getting into places you don't want it. Even if you have an antenna
which is fully balanced, and completely isolated from the building
ground (e.g. battery powered), the "near field" RF from the antenna
can be coupled into the building wiring, and start causing
interference and "undesired operation". Unfortunately, a lot of
consumer and industrial electronic equipment these days is very
vulnerable to this... poor shielding/filtering. Speaker cables,
telephone and alarm wiring, etc. can all act as antennas.

Not much you can do about this except try to route your antenna and
counterpoise wires as far away from other wiring as possible, keep
your transmission power down, and try to transmit during times when
people are asleep.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"Roger" wrote in message
news:11291508.1749.1335373308176.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbbpz9...

On Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, Irv Finkleman wrote:

Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!

So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Actually, I have lots of wire for the radials, the
tuner contains a loading coil to assist in tuning
the counterpoise, and my big concern is how do
I determine when the counterpoise is operating
effectively. The metering system in the tuner should
reach a peak and subside on either side of the
correct counterpoise tuning point, and what I
really need to know is how to determine when the
stray RF is minimized if not eliminated.


# Irv,

# Nice to hear that you got something working and are back on the air.
However I want to point out some incorrect assumptions you made earlier
about RFI and stray RF from counterpoises.

# The subject of radiating counterpoises in an apartment was discussed in
this Usenet group a few years ago. Here is a link that provides some more
info for you.

# How much does a counterpoise radiate? -
http://www.radiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=117807

# The counterpoise you have inside your apartment will definitely radiate
into the building as will the length of antenna running from the tuner to
the hole in the window. In another post you said you were running QRP at 5
watts. You may not have any # RFI problems with other electronics in your
building at these low levels. If you crank up the power to 100 watts I
don't think you will be so lucky...

-
True. A few years back with 100 watts and an attic loop, I fried the solid
state heat/AC thermostat. I put a ferrite choke on the leads of the new
one.

Wayne
W5GIE

Thanks Roger -- I already knew that but didn't at all consider it
during my recent explorations into the counterpoise system. How
I managed to ignore it defys explanation -- I keep asking myself
how that occurred. I think it may have been a cross between
psychological suggestion and some form of denial in wanting
a good and clean signal.

In particular I really enjoyed the tipoff to RadioBanter.com
which I intend to explore more, and the discussions were
informative. In particular, where there are links to other
threads I found some of Reg Edwards material which
has always been worthy of reading.

I went to bed satisfied that I could now get on the
air and not set off any alarms etc, and although I don't
recall them when I woke up, I'm sure I must have
dreamed about good times on the air again! I've
been in and out of the hospital for a couple years
and have not been on the air since about mid
2009. I'm better now and looking forward to
lots of radio activity!

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I have never been
power hungry and have generally operated in the
under 25 watt range -- now I'm going to be what
I call 'ham flyfishing' i.e. QRP.

Now I can do some further experimentation such
as using individual counterpoise wires for each band,
and possibly even a variable inductor to fine tune the
counterpoise, and assorted things like that. I have
never been as interested in operating as in the
technical aspects -- especially the eternal search
for the utopian small antenna/DX magnet. My
DX interest extends only in so far as it is the
on the air tests that tell you how well your
antenna system is functioning given a
non-adjustable set of propagation conditions.

Now I have only to look forward to a good
sunspot cycle and perhaps just a little more
global warming to help me through those
cold Alberta winters!

What's your call? Where are you located?
I saw a .ca somewhere but that doesn't tell me
much.

Thanks again,

Irv VE6BP

Gonna ham away my 'golden years'!

"Roger" wrote in message
news:11291508.1749.1335373308176.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbbpz9...
On Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, Irv Finkleman wrote:

Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!

So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Actually, I have lots of wire for the radials, the
tuner contains a loading coil to assist in tuning
the counterpoise, and my big concern is how do
I determine when the counterpoise is operating
effectively. The metering system in the tuner should
reach a peak and subside on either side of the
correct counterpoise tuning point, and what I
really need to know is how to determine when the
stray RF is minimized if not eliminated.


Irv,

Nice to hear that you got something working and are back on the air.
However I want to point out some incorrect assumptions you made earlier
about RFI and stray RF from counterpoises.

The subject of radiating counterpoises in an apartment was discussed in this
Usenet group a few years ago. Here is a link that provides some more info
for you.

How much does a counterpoise radiate? -
http://www.radiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=117807

The counterpoise you have inside your apartment will definitely radiate into
the building as will the length of antenna running from the tuner to the
hole in the window. In another post you said you were running QRP at 5
watts. You may not have any RFI problems with other electronics in your
building at these low levels. If you crank up the power to 100 watts I
don't think you will be so lucky...

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:47:55 AM UTC-7, Irv Finkleman wrote:


In particular I really enjoyed the tipoff to RadioBanter.com
which I intend to explore more, and the discussions were
informative. In particular, where there are links to other
threads I found some of Reg Edwards material which
has always been worthy of reading.


Irv,

If you found the radio banter discussion interesting you will really enjoy the forum on restrictive antennas at eham. Pages and pages of stuff written by hams living in condos, HOA and apartments. Here is the link....

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/in...board,2.0.html

Now that you are feeling better you can start having some fun back on the bands. You might find some of the digital modes like PSK31, WSPR etc. fun and they don't generate "recognizable RFI" like CW and SSB.

Roger

On 4/25/2012 2:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They
had no idea of RF then!

You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you
are reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good
bit of everything else related to electricity.

tom
K0TAR

Thanks for your reply Dave,

I'm learning a lot in a hurry, finding out that grounds can be just
as complex as antennas, and all about the interelationship between
the two.

I do have chokes on the power cord of my 12v supply and
also on the supply cord between the PS and the rig.

Your half wave suggestion is not immediately forthcoming
due to the physical limitations I face here however it is
on my list of possible future condierations.

As per a previous post I have recently come into a
treasure trove of inductors and capacitors -- variables
of every type and sixe. With all this at my disposalI
plan to fiddle about with tunable counterpoises,
artificial grounds, and combinations thereof.

At least I'm on the air again, but because I gave
all my gear away I've had to jump from old tube rigs
into a QRP world with a teensy Yaesu Ft-817 that it
appears will take some time to learn to operate with
all its menus, settings, and such. I have to get new
glasses and perhaps a magnifier too.

The saving grace here is QRP with which I hope
to get into as little trouble as possible.

I'm a pretty good tech, and have fixed up and modified
lots of stuff but now I'm going to have to do a lot of
learning in the wild world of wire antennas and grounds.

Thanks for your good suggestions, and for taking the
time to reply.

73

Irv VE6BP

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Irv Finkleman wrote:


I am not as concerned about a case of 'rf lip' as I am
about stray RF causing possible problems with the
neighbours on all sides of me, with all my electronic
toys such as computers, DVD players, the local
fire-alarm system and other such things. The last
thing I want to do is draw attention to the fact that I
am running a ham radio station from my suite until
I know I am not causing any problems.

Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!

So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Irv,

Your goals are certainly valid.

As far as preventing RF from going where you don't want it to... the
main issue MJF is talking about here is "conducted" RF. The RF energy
on the "ground" side of your antenna connector is going to flow
outwards through every conductive path available to it, including the
"counterpoise" side of your antenna arrangement, and anything
connected directly or indirectly to your rig's chassis (e.g. to the
power supply and then onto the third "ground" wire in the household
mains). The amount of current flowing through each of these paths
will depend on the RF impedance of the path, with more current flowing
through paths of lower impedance.

So, what you want is (probably) to have one or more counterpoise wires
whose RF impedance is as low as practical, at the frequency in
question. These could be quarter-wave wires, or they could be shorter
or longer wires with an "active ground" (which is essentially a simple
"antenna tuner" on the ground side, with an adjustable reactance to
cancel out some of the reactance of a non-quarterwave wire).

You can also help keep RF "where it belongs" by adding common-mode
chokes to your rig power cables, thus increasing the RF impedance of
this path and helping reduce the amount of current which is conducted
back into the building ground.

Another approach which may help, is to consider using an end-fed
half-wave antenna, with a specifically-wound matching coil system.
These are (in principle at least) largely ground-independent... the
low-impedance side of the matching coil provides good RF paths for
both the "hot" and "ground" sides of the antenna connection, and when
properly adjusted they don't dump much RF into the rig ground or
counterpoise.

These techniques may not help much, if at all, with *radiated* RF
getting into places you don't want it. Even if you have an antenna
which is fully balanced, and completely isolated from the building
ground (e.g. battery powered), the "near field" RF from the antenna
can be coupled into the building wiring, and start causing
interference and "undesired operation". Unfortunately, a lot of
consumer and industrial electronic equipment these days is very
vulnerable to this... poor shielding/filtering. Speaker cables,
telephone and alarm wiring, etc. can all act as antennas.

Not much you can do about this except try to route your antenna and
counterpoise wires as far away from other wiring as possible, keep
your transmission power down, and try to transmit during times when
people are asleep.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Hey Tom -- have you got the right topic here?

Irv VE6BP


"tom" wrote in message
. net...
On 4/25/2012 2:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either
through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They had
no idea of RF then!

You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you are
reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good bit of
everything else related to electricity.

tom
K0TAR

On 4/25/2012 9:03 PM, Irv Finkleman wrote:
Hey Tom -- have you got the right topic here?

Irv VE6BP


wrote in message
. net...
On 4/25/2012 2:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either
through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They had
no idea of RF then!

You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you are
reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good bit of
everything else related to electricity.

tom
K0TAR




Possibly not, my connection to the news server hiccuped badly for about
a half hour and a response didn't get posted. It was to our wonderful
source of knowledge Blaupunkt Szechuan.

I have no idea how it got posted to this thread, but I'd like to.

tom
K0TAR

On 4/25/2012 9:22 PM, tom wrote:
On 4/25/2012 9:03 PM, Irv Finkleman wrote:
Hey Tom -- have you got the right topic here?

Irv VE6BP


wrote in message
. net...
On 4/25/2012 2:56 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either
through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They had
no idea of RF then!

You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you
are
reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good
bit of
everything else related to electricity.

tom
K0TAR




Possibly not, my connection to the news server hiccuped badly for about
a half hour and a response didn't get posted. It was to our wonderful
source of knowledge Blaupunkt Szechuan.

I have no idea how it got posted to this thread, but I'd like to.

tom
K0TAR

On 4/25/2012 9:22 PM, tom wrote:


Possibly not, my connection to the news server hiccuped badly for about
a half hour and a response didn't get posted. It was to our wonderful
source of knowledge Blaupunkt Szechuan.

I have no idea how it got posted to this thread, but I'd like to.

tom
K0TAR




Wait a minute, that was correct. This was the response to Mister
Blaupunkt. I had it right.

tom
K0TAR