We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.

On 1/9/2014 10:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)


I would hate to have you as my neighbor. I would have to call the police
on you.

On 1/9/2014 11:00 AM, John S wrote:
On 1/9/2014 10:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)


I would hate to have you as my neighbor. I would have to call the police
on you.

We live in the North country close to the border. Our home, as are all,
is heavily insulated. I run the music loud as I want without bothering
the neighbours. The high wattage rating per channel is mostly just for
the incredibly low terminal impedance. This makes for very good fidelity
on high power low frequency. It is called inertial dampening. You have
to run large diameter wire to keep this all working. I have the speakers
hooked up with #10 wire. I checked performance of the speakers for this
type wire by running one speaker with #16 lamp cord which I had been
using and the other one hooked up with #10. I then switched to mono on
the preamp. Using the balance control clearly showed a very noticeable
improvement. I was told to use large dia wire to keep the resistance
very low. I first thought this was really over-kill but by experiment I
found that my advisor was correct. The impedance from the amp and wiring
should be in the very low milliohms to prevent inertial overshoot.
Purple Haze definitely sounded better :-)

PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could
be wrong, I was before.

boomer wrote:
On 1/9/2014 11:00 AM, John S wrote:
On 1/9/2014 10:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a
loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db
gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)


I would hate to have you as my neighbor. I would have to call the police
on you.

We live in the North country close to the border. Our home, as are all,
is heavily insulated. I run the music loud as I want without bothering
the neighbours. The high wattage rating per channel is mostly just for
the incredibly low terminal impedance. This makes for very good fidelity
on high power low frequency. It is called inertial dampening. You have to
run large diameter wire to keep this all working. I have the speakers
hooked up with #10 wire. I checked performance of the speakers for this
type wire by running one speaker with #16 lamp cord which I had been
using and the other one hooked up with #10. I then switched to mono on
the preamp. Using the balance control clearly showed a very noticeable
improvement. I was told to use large dia wire to keep the resistance very
low. I first thought this was really over-kill but by experiment I found
that my advisor was correct. The impedance from the amp and wiring should
be in the very low milliohms to prevent inertial overshoot. Purple Haze
definitely sounded better :-)

PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could
be wrong, I was before.

Yo only get so much damping with small wire. Most of it is determined by
the driver box design, driver, and resistance in the coil. What you gain
most is a more even driving Z to cover changes in speaker Z throughout the
response range.

Greg

"boomer" wrote in message
news:_fDzu.213384$4q1.203346@en-nntp-
PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could be
wrong, I was before.

While going from # 20 or so speaker wire to # 10 is often helpful, I doubt
going much larger is going to help unless you have a very long run.

Lots of things are over sold to te audio people. Best one I know of is some
special oxygen free teflon wire ( or something like that) that replaces the
line cord to the wall outlet for over $ 100. Even if it actually did
something, that extra 50 or so feet of regular wire back to the breaker box
and other wire to the main power feed would make it worthless.



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 1/9/2014 11:21 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"boomer" wrote in message
news:_fDzu.213384$4q1.203346@en-nntp-
PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could be
wrong, I was before.

While going from # 20 or so speaker wire to # 10 is often helpful, I doubt
going much larger is going to help unless you have a very long run.

Lots of things are over sold to te audio people. Best one I know of is some
special oxygen free teflon wire ( or something like that) that replaces the
line cord to the wall outlet for over $ 100. Even if it actually did
something, that extra 50 or so feet of regular wire back to the breaker box
and other wire to the main power feed would make it worthless.


Definitely! A lot of audio people want the best sound, but are
unfamiliar with the technical aspects. This leaves them ripe for greedy
salespeople.

I remember going into circuit City a few years ago. All I needed was a
few feet of speaker wire. The salesman tried to sell me a 50' spool of
16 gauge wire for about $50. I asked him why it was so expensive - he
replied "Because it's (brand name here)". I then asked him what was so
special about Monster. His only response was "It's (brand name here)!".

I went down the street to Radio Shack and got something similar for
under $10. That was 15 or more years ago, and it's still working fine.

If you want to sell me something that's 5x the price of the competition,
you need to be ready to tell me WHY it's 5x the price. And just saying
it's because it's a certain brand doesn't work.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

In a circa 1970s issue of Stereo Review there was a cartoon showing the
Front Window of a Stereo Dealers. There was a sign advertising an OLD
FOLKS SPECIAL -- a speaker with a frequency response of 500Hz to
5KHz. A caption stated 'Why Pay Good Money For Sound You Can
No Longer Hear?'

Incidentally, if you Google Wickipedia there are a number of articles
on 'speaker damping factor'. In those days I didn't know much math
or physics, so I just used line cord to hook up the speakers. They
sounded great to me! Those were also the days when if you turned up
(or down) the Bass and Treble controls you were in danger of being
poo-pooed by your audiophile friends!

Irv VE6BP


--
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece
of **** by the clean end.



"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 1/9/2014 11:21 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"boomer" wrote in message
news:_fDzu.213384$4q1.203346@en-nntp-
PS some have actually used #00 wire to their speakers. Without
experimenting myself I feel by guessing that this is over-kill. I could
be
wrong, I was before.

While going from # 20 or so speaker wire to # 10 is often helpful, I
doubt
going much larger is going to help unless you have a very long run.

Lots of things are over sold to te audio people. Best one I know of is
some
special oxygen free teflon wire ( or something like that) that replaces
the
line cord to the wall outlet for over $ 100. Even if it actually did
something, that extra 50 or so feet of regular wire back to the breaker
box
and other wire to the main power feed would make it worthless.


Definitely! A lot of audio people want the best sound, but are unfamiliar
with the technical aspects. This leaves them ripe for greedy salespeople.

I remember going into circuit City a few years ago. All I needed was a
few feet of speaker wire. The salesman tried to sell me a 50' spool of 16
gauge wire for about $50. I asked him why it was so expensive - he
replied "Because it's (brand name here)". I then asked him what was so
special about Monster. His only response was "It's (brand name here)!".

I went down the street to Radio Shack and got something similar for under
$10. That was 15 or more years ago, and it's still working fine.

If you want to sell me something that's 5x the price of the competition,
you need to be ready to tell me WHY it's 5x the price. And just saying
it's because it's a certain brand doesn't work.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

If you want to sell me something that's 5x the price of the competition,
you need to be ready to tell me WHY it's 5x the price. And just saying
it's because it's a certain brand doesn't work.


Had he told people the wire was teflon coated so the electrons flowed beter
and the copper was oxygen free so the electrons would not be degraded, he
could have sold it..

From what I have been seeing the TV people are about the same, Selling high
dollar hdmi cable or special high defination antennas with the same snake
oil pitch.



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 1/10/2014 10:55 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...

If you want to sell me something that's 5x the price of the competition,
you need to be ready to tell me WHY it's 5x the price. And just saying
it's because it's a certain brand doesn't work.


Had he told people the wire was teflon coated so the electrons flowed beter
and the copper was oxygen free so the electrons would not be degraded, he
could have sold it..

From what I have been seeing the TV people are about the same, Selling high
dollar hdmi cable or special high defination antennas with the same snake
oil pitch.



Yup, I know what you mean. There are some major differences between
different HDMI cables; they'll all work pretty well at five feet, but
many of the cheaper brands (and a bunch of what you see on TV) won't
work at 50 feet (the maximum for the spec). For some, even 15 feet is
problematical.

Best is to buy from a reputable high-end dealer, especially if it's a
local store and not a chain. They know their stuff.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 1/9/2014 11:53 AM, boomer wrote:


We aren't talking multiple arrays in large places. Of course multiple
speakers will provide more gain than one speaker. And horn speakers
get
their "gain" by directing more energy in one direction; there is a loss
of signal in other directions. It has nothing to do with "impedance
matching to the air" (there is no such thing).

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create energy out of
nothing,
which is what you would be doing if you quadrupled the power (6db gain)
by placing two speakers in phase. If you "measured" this, you need a
new meter.

I would love to tear apart your "reference".

Non believer in facts. If you don't believe you should do tests, like
me.

I'll skip the horn for now..

If you can't believe two speakers will move TWICE the air doubling
intensity, I don't know what else to say, except test yourself.

Greg


I have (I was an EE major). You can't create energy from nothing. The
laws of physics don't allow it. And I currently have a business which
deals with home entertainment systems.

At MOST, two speakers in phase can move twice the air. No more, and in
reality, because of inefficiencies, it will be less.

I hate to question the law of conservation of energy at all, but I must
say that there could be more energy delivered from two 8 ohm speakers in
parallel than a single speaker powered by the same amplifier. Many
amplifiers have 4 ohm outputs. So, you see the possibility. You would be
delivering the same energy to both speakers as was delivered to one.

Of course for those who believe in magical energy production, no
reasoning will help.

I personally have a Crown 810 powering a couple of AR SRT380s. The
amplifier has 4 ohm outputs and the speakers are 4 ohms. There is
nothing to be done to increase sound power except buy more efficient
folded horn types. I have neither the space nor money to do so. However,
at 420 watts rms per channel as it is now, I really don't require more
power. Jimmy Hendrix sounds just fine to me. :-)

So, matching output impedance of amplifier to speaker will result in
maximum energy transfer and using the most efficient speakers will
result in of course more acoustic energy produced. All we are talking
about here is not wasting energy in poor efficiency systems.



OK, so instead of putting out 100W to one eight-ohm speaker, you're
putting out 100W to two eight ohm speakers. So you have a 3db gain,
assuming the speakers are in phase.

It is no different than feeding two eight-ohm speakers from separate
100W amplifiers, and the results are the same.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================