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#1
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
It's a long story, here's the short version. Our volunteer rescue squad dispatch operates in the 152 - 154 MHz range -- transmit on 154.XXX, receive 152.XXX. Our main antenna barely survived contact with a tree limb and needs to be replaced. Our local Motorola sales rep has his head stuck firmly up his ass and keeps trying to sell us some basic 1/4-wave verticals. The current antenna is a vertical whip with a loading coil wound along the length of the antenna. The dimensions a -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base I suspect this antenna is an old model 5/8-wave VHF antenna, shortened by winding a coil in the antenna. If it is a 5.8-wave, it should be giving us a few dB gain. The 1/4-wave whip he wants me to install would give unity or less gain. In our rural area, we need all the antenna help we can get. I an thinking about installing a full-length 5/8-wave whip, but, we go into a lot of driveways with low tree limbs and I doubt a full-length antenna would survive very long. I have Googled every term I can think of to find this antenna, Motorola sales rep tells me he thinks its a "cellular antenna" . . ..which it clearly is not. My MFJ antenna analyzer shows a resonance at 154 MHz. Anyone help me identify this antenna? - - - - - Fat, Dumb, and Ugly is no way to go through life. But, if you're a Republican, you have no choice. |
#2
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
"Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names" wrote in message ... It's a long story, here's the short version. Our volunteer rescue squad dispatch operates in the 152 - 154 MHz range -- transmit on 154.XXX, receive 152.XXX. Our main antenna barely survived contact with a tree limb and needs to be replaced. Our local Motorola sales rep has his head stuck firmly up his ass and keeps trying to sell us some basic 1/4-wave verticals. The current antenna is a vertical whip with a loading coil wound along the length of the antenna. The dimensions a -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base I suspect this antenna is an old model 5/8-wave VHF antenna, shortened by winding a coil in the antenna. If it is a 5.8-wave, it should be giving us a few dB gain. The 1/4-wave whip he wants me to install would give unity or less gain. In our rural area, we need all the antenna help we can get. I an thinking about installing a full-length 5/8-wave whip, but, we go into a lot of driveways with low tree limbs and I doubt a full-length antenna would survive very long. I have Googled every term I can think of to find this antenna, Motorola sales rep tells me he thinks its a "cellular antenna" . . .which it clearly is not. My MFJ antenna analyzer shows a resonance at 154 MHz. Anyone help me identify this antenna? I don't think the Motorola man has his head anywhere, but maybe your head is. To be a 5/8 wave or gain antenna at 154 mhz the antenna will be about 35 to 45 inches long. If the antena you have is only 14.25 inches long, it is less than 1/4 and will have even less gain than a 1/4 wave whip. A 1/4 whip will be about 18 inches at 154 mhz. You do not shorten a 5/8 antenna by winding coils. The coils are either matching or phasing coils. |
#3
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
I hate to break it to you, but what you have is a
less-than-quarter-wave vertical with a loading coil to bring the terminal impedance up to 50 ohms. Only the straight parts of the antenna radiate and that thing doesn't have very much. Your Moto guy was right in recommending a quarter-wave whip; it would out-perform this loaded version you have now. To counteract hitting trees and other stuff, you could substitute thin, strong 0.03"dia stainless spring stock for the radiator. It has a lot of "give" and could recover from close encounters. I use that for my 1/4-WL whip that daily bangs into my low-hanging garage door. Jim, K7JEB On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:57:05 AM UTC-7, Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names wrote: The current antenna is a vertical whip with a loading coil wound along the length of the antenna. The dimensions a -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base I suspect this antenna is an old model 5/8-wave VHF antenna, shortened by winding a coil in the antenna. |
#4
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
El 24-06-13 14:57, Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names escribió:
It's a long story, here's the short version. Our volunteer rescue squad dispatch operates in the 152 - 154 MHz range -- transmit on 154.XXX, receive 152.XXX. Our main antenna barely survived contact with a tree limb and needs to be replaced. Our local Motorola sales rep has his head stuck firmly up his ass and keeps trying to sell us some basic 1/4-wave verticals. The current antenna is a vertical whip with a loading coil wound along the length of the antenna. The dimensions a -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base I suspect this antenna is an old model 5/8-wave VHF antenna, shortened by winding a coil in the antenna. If it is a 5.8-wave, it should be giving us a few dB gain. The 1/4-wave whip he wants me to install would give unity or less gain. In our rural area, we need all the antenna help we can get. I an thinking about installing a full-length 5/8-wave whip, but, we go into a lot of driveways with low tree limbs and I doubt a full-length antenna would survive very long. I have Googled every term I can think of to find this antenna, Motorola sales rep tells me he thinks its a "cellular antenna" . . .which it clearly is not. My MFJ antenna analyzer shows a resonance at 154 MHz. Anyone help me identify this antenna? - - - - - Fat, Dumb, and Ugly is no way to go through life. But, if you're a Republican, you have no choice. I agree with others. The full size quarter wave with correct size radials will perform better then the current 14.25' stick, no matter how you wind it. Make sure you have some VSWR indication to tune it to your frequency range, or just to check the complete installation. -- Wim PA3DJS www.tetech.nl Please remove abc first in case of PM |
#5
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 08:57:05 -0400, Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
wrote: Our volunteer rescue squad dispatch operates in the 152 - 154 MHz range -- transmit on 154.XXX, receive 152.XXX. Antennas are normally tuned to the transmit frequency. Our main antenna barely survived contact with a tree limb and needs to be replaced. The tree limb will replace itself by growing back. All it takes is time. -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base Like this perhaps? http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Misc/slides/Motorola-850mhz-NMO.html That's an 850 Mhz 5/8 wave antenna, commonly sold by Motorola for trunking systems. There's another model, with the same dimensions, but with thicker wire. It does work on VHF frequencies as a center loaded monopole, but is not designed for the purpose. I have about a dozen if you need one or two. Also, please check your frequency of operation just to be sure you're on 152 and not 850 MHz. I suspect this antenna is an old model 5/8-wave VHF antenna, shortened by winding a coil in the antenna. Nope. A 5/8 wave antenna is ummm... 5/8 wavelength at 152 MHz long or about 1 meter long. A 1/4 wave antenna will be ummm... 1/4 wavelength long or about 50 cm long. If it is a 5.8-wave, it should be giving us a few dB gain. The 1/4-wave whip he wants me to install would give unity or less gain. In our rural area, we need all the antenna help we can get. Some reading on the topic of 1/4 wave versus 5/8 wave mobile antennas: http://www.k0bg.com/images/pdf/mobile_vhf_ant.pdf Gain is a good thing, but not always beneficial. The mounting position has a big effect on the pattern. Any monopole, mounted on a flat ground plane, will have a tendency to "uptilt" the pattern, providing more RF to the sky than to the horizon. Too much gain and when the vehicle is at an angle, such as going uphill or downhill, there will be some pattern tilt. Fortunately, these type of problems are not much of a consideration, although they are important an UHF and up. Also, there are some mobile antennas, with open loading coils in the middle. Tree branches like to become entangled with the coil and try to rip the antenna out of the roof mount. I have one of those do exactly that to a previous vehicle. If you're going to be garaging the vehicle, there are 5/8 wave antennas that will tilt over with a hinge just above the base loading coil. I an thinking about installing a full-length 5/8-wave whip, but, we go into a lot of driveways with low tree limbs and I doubt a full-length antenna would survive very long. If there's a spring near the base, it will survive, as long as the tree limb doesn't hit the spring and get stuck. I prefer a magnet mount antenna, which simply falls over. The rectangular bases fall over better than the round bases. Do try to remember to put the magnet mount back when leaving the garage. Anyone help me identify this antenna? Sure. A photo would be helpful. If it's not the one in my photo, start he https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=vhf+mobile+antenna and see if any of the photos match your existing antenna. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#6
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:15:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base Like this perhaps? http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Misc/slides/Motorola-850mhz-NMO.html That's an 850 Mhz 5/8 wave antenna, commonly sold by Motorola for trunking systems. The antenna in the photo was made by Maxrad (PcTel). I have others that appear identical from Antennex (Laird). I couldn't find a similar antenna in either online catalog. The one's supplied by Motorola use a heavier gauge wire which I guess(tm) were Antenna Specialists (PcTel) like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321096706872 This is the closest equivalent that I could find: http://www.antenna.com/artifacts/2012511BASELOADEDNOGROUNDPLANEANTENNAS.pdf I would advise against using this antenna for 152 Mhz and suggest you get a real 1/4 wave or 5/8 wave antenna. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#7
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
El 24-06-13 18:14, Wimpie escribió:
El 24-06-13 14:57, Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names escribió: It's a long story, here's the short version. Our volunteer rescue squad dispatch operates in the 152 - 154 MHz range -- transmit on 154.XXX, receive 152.XXX. Our main antenna barely survived contact with a tree limb and needs to be replaced. Our local Motorola sales rep has his head stuck firmly up his ass and keeps trying to sell us some basic 1/4-wave verticals. The current antenna is a vertical whip with a loading coil wound along the length of the antenna. The dimensions a -- Overall height: 14.25 inches -- 4 inches from the base the antenna is wound into a coil, about 3/8 inch diameter, 5 turns -- the coil is 1.75 inches long -- above the coil is 8.5 inches of antenna -- NMO base I suspect this antenna is an old model 5/8-wave VHF antenna, shortened by winding a coil in the antenna. If it is a 5.8-wave, it should be giving us a few dB gain. The 1/4-wave whip he wants me to install would give unity or less gain. In our rural area, we need all the antenna help we can get. I an thinking about installing a full-length 5/8-wave whip, but, we go into a lot of driveways with low tree limbs and I doubt a full-length antenna would survive very long. I have Googled every term I can think of to find this antenna, Motorola sales rep tells me he thinks its a "cellular antenna" . . .which it clearly is not. My MFJ antenna analyzer shows a resonance at 154 MHz. Anyone help me identify this antenna? - - - - - Fat, Dumb, and Ugly is no way to go through life. But, if you're a Republican, you have no choice. I agree with others. The full size quarter wave with correct size radials will perform better then the current 14.25' stick, no matter how you wind it. Make sure you have some VSWR indication to tune it to your frequency range, or just to check the complete installation. I overlooked the mobile operation from a car. Of course, when the antenna is mounted on a metal surface, you don't need radials.. -- Wim PA3DJS www.tetech.nl Please remove abc first in case of PM |
#8
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:46:46 +0200, Wimpie
wrote: I overlooked the mobile operation from a car. Of course, when the antenna is mounted on a metal surface, you don't need radials.. If it's a metal car roof, you don't need radials. Unfortunately, I've had to deal with verhicles that have a fiberglass roof. Aluminum duct tape ground plane (on the inside) to the rescue. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Nashua-Tape-322-1-57-64-in-x-50-yds-Aluminum-Foil-Tape-3220020500/100030120#.Uch4_Ng9pjZ The fiberglass roof problem is also common in marine VHF (156-163Mhz) installations. Those tend to use 1/2 wave antennas, which do not require a ground plane. The automobile version of the 1/2 wave: http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/laird-tech-bb1322w-4470.html?zenid=6bc9236b727ed1e483c9037fb2ac52db -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#9
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Help with commercial VHF mobile antenna
In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote: I overlooked the mobile operation from a car. Of course, when the antenna is mounted on a metal surface, you don't need radials.. If it's a metal car roof, you don't need radials. Unfortunately, I've had to deal with verhicles that have a fiberglass roof. Aluminum duct tape ground plane (on the inside) to the rescue. That will help but not entirely resolve the situation. What I have heard, is that the theoretical gain advantage of a 5/8-wavelength monopole over a 1/4-wave monopole, is dependent on the antenna being operated over a fairly large groundplane (one which reaches out several wavelengths from the feedpoint). A simple set of ground-radial "tapes" won't be big or extensive enough... and, actually, neither will be the typical vehicle roof (at VHF wavelengths at least). According to these sources, in the absence of a good groundplane, the 5/8-wave monopole tends to "squint" - its highest-gain lobes are not towards the horizon but aim upwards somewhat. Gain towards the horizon may be *less* than a quarter-wave monopole on the same vehicle mount. So, the theoretical gain advantage of a 5/8-wave vehicle antenna may not work out in practice. Testing would be required to see if there's actually an advantage, or whether a "high gain" antenna of this sort is actually a loss in practice because the gain is aimed in the wrong directions. And, I agree that for many vehicle mounting situations, a "ground independent" antenna such as an end-fed half-wave may be the best bet. I believe you can get these in a shortened form (with distributed or lumped inductive loading in the center of the radiator) to keep the height within reason... but going for a full-length end-fed radiator would give you somewhat better gain and efficiency, if it's safe to install on the vehicle. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
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