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Discone and feedline grounding
On 03/20/2014 09:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2014 00:06:50 -0700, Jon Danniken wrote: Hi all, I'm cooking up a discone antenna for receiving, I don't want to discourage you, but if you're building something from scratch, may I suggest you build an antenna that works better than a discone. There was a discussion in this newsgroups recently that drifted over to discones. To illustrate some of the problems, I ran simulations of a Diamond D-130 discone (without the low frequency vertical section) to illustrate how the antenna pattern is less than ideal at the higher frequencies. See: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Discone/index.html An animated slide show is at: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Discone/slides/discone-animated.html The frequency is shown in the upper left. The gain in the lower right. Note that the gain is still there, but at higher frequencies is mostly pointing almost straight up. Thanks Jeff, I had not considered a biconical, but it looks interesting. The discone I am building is of a "spoke" variety, with the cone built separate from the disk, so it would be simple to duplicate another cone and invert it on top of the other cone. Unless you're interested in listening to satellites and aircraft, I recommend a biconcial instead. It's very much like the common "fan dipole" used for multiband HF operation without requiring traps. I do like aircraft, although I am starting to think that I might be better off with a dedicated airband antenna (looking at j-poles right now) along with a wideband antenna for general scanning. Speaking of multiple antennas, I know that some antennas use multiple elements tuned to different bands, but can you connect two antennas to the same feedline? Like, say, a discone/biconical and a j-pole? Unfortunately, my only biconical model that might be suitable seems to have a problem. (I don't recall where I found the model). There are some nasty nulls at several frequencies between 50 to 1000 MHz that need to be fixed. I'll play with it some more when I have time. http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/biconical/ I set the characteristic impedance to 75 ohms, which seems to work the best. However, anything between 50 and 200 ohms should work. For 75 ohms, a 1:1 broadband balun (i.e. a transformer) is necessary. I'll create an animated GIF file for the patterns at various frequencies when I have more time. I'll look forward to that, thanks! Jon |
#2
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Discone and feedline grounding
On Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:14:01 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote: Thanks Jeff, I had not considered a biconical, but it looks interesting. The discone I am building is of a "spoke" variety, with the cone built separate from the disk, so it would be simple to duplicate another cone and invert it on top of the other cone. If you want to be cheap and sloppy (like me), consider that a bowtie antenna, commonly found on broadband TV antennas, is nothing more than a flattened biconcial antenna. While it is directional, it's functions much the same way as a biconcical and is much easier to build (out of aluminum roof flashing). I do like aircraft, although I am starting to think that I might be better off with a dedicated airband antenna (looking at j-poles right now) along with a wideband antenna for general scanning. I don't have any professional experience with aircraft antennas. However, I have done some ADS-B 1090 MHz designs and tests. The basic idea is that the antenna should have the most gain at the horizon and somewhat above the horizon to get the most range. Commercial jets fly at about 5 miles altitude maximum, so gain in the upwards direction is less critical. That's quite opposite of what the discone and biconical will do. Speaking of multiple antennas, I know that some antennas use multiple elements tuned to different bands, but can you connect two antennas to the same feedline? Like, say, a discone/biconical and a j-pole? No. The best you can do is insert a diplexer at the feedpoint junction, and separate the operating frequencies. Putting two antennas in parallel doesn't work. If both antennas received the same signal, the antenna pattern would be a conglomeration of both antennas, which could just as easily result in a null as it could a peak (also known as a mess). I have such an arrangement at a site. 120ft of very expensive 2"(?) Heliax going between the tower and the building. One triplexer and three antennas, each on a different band, on top of the tower. Another triplexer and 3 radios at the other end. Works so-so as intermod and desense are a problem on some frequencies due to insufficient triplexer isolation. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#3
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Discone and feedline grounding
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote: Thanks Jeff, I had not considered a biconical, but it looks interesting. The discone I am building is of a "spoke" variety, with the cone built separate from the disk, so it would be simple to duplicate another cone and invert it on top of the other cone. If you want to be cheap and sloppy (like me), consider that a bowtie antenna, commonly found on broadband TV antennas, is nothing more than a flattened biconcial antenna. While it is directional, it's functions much the same way as a biconcical and is much easier to build (out of aluminum roof flashing). I do like aircraft, although I am starting to think that I might be better off with a dedicated airband antenna (looking at j-poles right now) along with a wideband antenna for general scanning. I don't have any professional experience with aircraft antennas. However, I have done some ADS-B 1090 MHz designs and tests. The basic idea is that the antenna should have the most gain at the horizon and somewhat above the horizon to get the most range. Commercial jets fly at about 5 miles altitude maximum, so gain in the upwards direction is less critical. That's quite opposite of what the discone and biconical will do. I thought the discone/biconicals were more of a horizon-looking antenna, at least from what I have read on them? Speaking of multiple antennas, I know that some antennas use multiple elements tuned to different bands, but can you connect two antennas to the same feedline? Like, say, a discone/biconical and a j-pole? No. The best you can do is insert a diplexer at the feedpoint junction, and separate the operating frequencies. Putting two antennas in parallel doesn't work. If both antennas received the same signal, the antenna pattern would be a conglomeration of both antennas, which could just as easily result in a null as it could a peak (also known as a mess). I have such an arrangement at a site. 120ft of very expensive 2"(?) Heliax going between the tower and the building. One triplexer and three antennas, each on a different band, on top of the tower. Another triplexer and 3 radios at the other end. Works so-so as intermod and desense are a problem on some frequencies due to insufficient triplexer isolation. Maybe I'll look at a switcher of some sort eventually, and plan on just manually doing it for now, thanks. Jon |
#4
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Discone and feedline grounding
On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:47:56 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote: I don't have any professional experience with aircraft antennas. However, I have done some ADS-B 1090 MHz designs and tests. The basic idea is that the antenna should have the most gain at the horizon and somewhat above the horizon to get the most range. Commercial jets fly at about 5 miles altitude maximum, so gain in the upwards direction is less critical. That's quite opposite of what the discone and biconical will do. I thought the discone/biconicals were more of a horizon-looking antenna, at least from what I have read on them? After I ran the NEC2 models, that seems true for the low end of the frequency range. They are suppose to look something like a broadband version of a vertical dipole. However, as the frequency goes up, additional lobes appear until at the top of the frequency range, most of the RF is going straight up. A Biconical is somewhat better than a discone at retaining a sane looking pattern and reasonable gain, but not much better. My point about listening to aircraft is that there's little difficulty hearing aircraft that are overhead, and plenty of difficulty hearing aircraft near the horizon. Therefore, the antenna should have most of its gain towards the horizon, and less gain above the horizon to near overhead. At low frequencies, the discone does that. At the high end of the range, it's quite the opposite. Maybe I'll look at a switcher of some sort eventually, and plan on just manually doing it for now, thanks. Ummm... climbing the tower to rotate a manual switch doesn't sound like a good idea. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#5
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Discone and feedline grounding
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote: I thought the discone/biconicals were more of a horizon-looking antenna, at least from what I have read on them? After I ran the NEC2 models, that seems true for the low end of the frequency range. They are suppose to look something like a broadband version of a vertical dipole. However, as the frequency goes up, additional lobes appear until at the top of the frequency range, most of the RF is going straight up. A Biconical is somewhat better than a discone at retaining a sane looking pattern and reasonable gain, but not much better. My point about listening to aircraft is that there's little difficulty hearing aircraft that are overhead, and plenty of difficulty hearing aircraft near the horizon. Therefore, the antenna should have most of its gain towards the horizon, and less gain above the horizon to near overhead. At low frequencies, the discone does that. At the high end of the range, it's quite the opposite. Aha, okay I got you now, thanks for that. I still need to figure out how to read the "lobe pattern" charts. Maybe I'll look at a switcher of some sort eventually, and plan on just manually doing it for now, thanks. Ummm... climbing the tower to rotate a manual switch doesn't sound like a good idea. Hehe, indeed it doesn't. I was thinking more along the lines of a relay box, if such a thing is possible, or maybe there is actually a gadget that does something similar. Along those lines, if connecting antennae of differing frequencies together is not something that works, how does an antenna with multiple different elements, like something like a scantenna (http://i.imgur.com/D3Aeb58.jpg) get away with it? Jon |
#6
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Discone and feedline grounding
On 3/22/2014 7:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:47:56 -0700, Jon Danniken wrote: I don't have any professional experience with aircraft antennas. However, I have done some ADS-B 1090 MHz designs and tests. The basic idea is that the antenna should have the most gain at the horizon and somewhat above the horizon to get the most range. Commercial jets fly at about 5 miles altitude maximum, so gain in the upwards direction is less critical. That's quite opposite of what the discone and biconical will do. I thought the discone/biconicals were more of a horizon-looking antenna, at least from what I have read on them? After I ran the NEC2 models, that seems true for the low end of the frequency range. They are suppose to look something like a broadband version of a vertical dipole. However, as the frequency goes up, additional lobes appear until at the top of the frequency range, most of the RF is going straight up. A Biconical is somewhat better than a discone at retaining a sane looking pattern and reasonable gain, but not much better. My point about listening to aircraft is that there's little difficulty hearing aircraft that are overhead, and plenty of difficulty hearing aircraft near the horizon. Therefore, the antenna should have most of its gain towards the horizon, and less gain above the horizon to near overhead. At low frequencies, the discone does that. At the high end of the range, it's quite the opposite. There is? I remember back in the 70's a United Airlines pilot who would regularly work 146.52. I had no trouble chatting with him from almost 300 miles away, even though he was only using a 1.5W HT. And out here on the east coast, it's impossible to use an HT on any 2M repeater frequency without bringing up multiple repeaters, even when using 1W at about 3,000 feet or above. From 10,000 feet, forget it almost anywhere in the country. And BTW - commercial planes generally fly at around 7mi (35,000-37,000 ft.) high - not 5Mi (26,000 ft.) as you claimed. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
#7
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Discone and feedline grounding
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 09:24:09 -0400, Jerry Stuckle
wrote: On 3/22/2014 7:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: My point about listening to aircraft is that there's little difficulty hearing aircraft that are overhead, and plenty of difficulty hearing aircraft near the horizon. Therefore, the antenna should have most of its gain towards the horizon, and less gain above the horizon to near overhead. At low frequencies, the discone does that. At the high end of the range, it's quite the opposite. There is? I remember back in the 70's a United Airlines pilot who would regularly work 146.52. I had no trouble chatting with him from almost 300 miles away, even though he was only using a 1.5W HT. And out here on the east coast, it's impossible to use an HT on any 2M repeater frequency without bringing up multiple repeaters, even when using 1W at about 3,000 feet or above. From 10,000 feet, forget it almost anywhere in the country. Yep. You can be heard for quite a distance from an airplane. The problem is hearing anything as the chances of co-channel interference is high. I help maintain an ADS-B listening station (1090 MHz) with a good view of the ocean. 200 Nm average range. I designed the antenna specifically for the purpose and location: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-5-1090MHz/index.html The actual antenna system is somewhat more complex. Also a VHF AIS receiver at a local hilltop. Great view from near the coast from about 2,000 ft. http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/details/stations/112 (Note that it's NOT on Mt Umunhum. The receiver was moved to Bonny Doon to eliminate weather xmitter interference). Average range is about 200 Nm, and much more when ducting is available. If you're near the coast, listen on 161.975 MHz and 162.025 MHz for the AIS traffic. And BTW - commercial planes generally fly at around 7mi (35,000-37,000 ft.) high - not 5Mi (26,000 ft.) as you claimed. True. The problem is that near the coast, most of the aircraft traffic is on takeoff or approach and at much lower altitudes. Here's a typical altitude profile for an KLAX to KSFO flight: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/flight-profile.jpg Data capture was from: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VRD935/history/20140323/1600Z/KLAX/KSFO/tracklog which will change throughout the day. Notice that for a 500 Nm flight, it doesn't stay above 30,000 ft for very long. By the time I see the incoming data, it's usually between 10,000 to 15,000 ft. Of course for cross country, they stay above 30,000 ft for much longer. I just took a look at the raw data from the local ADS-B receiver. One flight at 30,000 ft and everything else below about 15,000 ft over a 10 minute period. Incidentally, until you mentioned radio range in an aircraft, I never bothered to check how much TX power the aircraft was using for ADS-B (1090 MHz). Looks like they deliver some serious power at altitude: http://www.ads-b.com/PDF/UAT%20SARP.pdf Table 12-1: Transmitter power levels Transmitter Minimum power Maximum power Intended minimum type at PMP at PMP air-to-air ranges Aircraft (Low) 7 watts (+38.5 dBm) 18 watts (+42.5 dBm) 20 NM Aircraft (Med) 16 watts (+42 dBm) 40 watts (+46 dBm) 40 NM Aircraft (High) 100 watts (+50 dBm) 250 watts (+54 dBm) 120 NM Note that the range is for air to air, not air to ground. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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