On 10/9/2014 10:36 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:19 AM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/8/2014 9:06 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/8/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...

All electromagnetic radiation is photons, no matter what generated
the
photons, be it a burning match or current in a conductor.

By just a naming convention, or by detectable individual wave packets?

By over 100 years of research into the nature of electromagnetic
radiation.

Were I to transmit a single unmodulated carrier at 3.6MHZ, how many
of your
photons
per second would be generated, and, as each photon is a packet with
amplitude
rise and fall times, why isn't the extra bandwidth due to that AM
detectable?

Likely because your assumptions and questions are babble.

Start with "each photon is a packet with amplitude rise and fall times".

They are not.

Each photon has an energy E=hf, where f is frequency and h is Planck's
constant.

No packets, no rise and fall times.

That's not perfectly correct. A photon may not be a wave packet, but it
is a particle with mass and size which could be interpreted as having
rise and fall times. However... they are all identical and any one
photon could not be modulated.


Rick,

While agree with your statement, I have another problem with physics as
a whole. Einstein proved that it would take an infinite amount of
energy to accelerate ANY mass to the speed of light. However, photons
seem to have mass and travel at the speed of light. My knowledge of
physics does not allow me to resolve this contradiction.

Start he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity




I've read much more than a simple Wikipedia article. And the only thing
I can come up with is that physicists can't explain the why either -
just that it's the way the math works out.

You just don't get it. A photon has no rest mass. It only has it's
engergy. If it had rest mass and had to be accelerated to the speed of
light not only could it not accelerate to c, it couldn't accelerate
instantaneously to *any* speed.

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.

--

Rick

On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 10:36 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:19 AM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/8/2014 9:06 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/8/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...

All electromagnetic radiation is photons, no matter what
generated
the
photons, be it a burning match or current in a conductor.

By just a naming convention, or by detectable individual wave
packets?

By over 100 years of research into the nature of electromagnetic
radiation.

Were I to transmit a single unmodulated carrier at 3.6MHZ, how many
of your
photons
per second would be generated, and, as each photon is a packet with
amplitude
rise and fall times, why isn't the extra bandwidth due to that AM
detectable?

Likely because your assumptions and questions are babble.

Start with "each photon is a packet with amplitude rise and fall
times".

They are not.

Each photon has an energy E=hf, where f is frequency and h is
Planck's
constant.

No packets, no rise and fall times.

That's not perfectly correct. A photon may not be a wave packet,
but it
is a particle with mass and size which could be interpreted as having
rise and fall times. However... they are all identical and any one
photon could not be modulated.


Rick,

While agree with your statement, I have another problem with physics as
a whole. Einstein proved that it would take an infinite amount of
energy to accelerate ANY mass to the speed of light. However, photons
seem to have mass and travel at the speed of light. My knowledge of
physics does not allow me to resolve this contradiction.

Start he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity




I've read much more than a simple Wikipedia article. And the only thing
I can come up with is that physicists can't explain the why either -
just that it's the way the math works out.

You just don't get it. A photon has no rest mass. It only has it's
engergy. If it had rest mass and had to be accelerated to the speed of
light not only could it not accelerate to c, it couldn't accelerate
instantaneously to *any* speed.

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

snip

I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

This is rather circular, but...

It comes from the energy of the photon and the energy of the photon
comes from whatever created the photon.

Specificially it come from the energy-momnetum relation.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity

Look at the paragraph labled: The relativistic energy-momentum equation.

One way to look at it is that relativistic mass is not a real mass but
an effect that is equivelant to a mass.

If you really want to have something to wonder about, read up on tachyon
fields and imaginary mass:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyonic_field


--
Jim Pennino

wrote in :

It comes from the energy of the photon and the energy of the photon
comes from whatever created the photon.


Exactly so. THis is what I meant when I said that my small attepts to grasp
laser physics showed me that rise/fall times were entirely based on the
material properties of the laser (having mass), not of the photons it makes.
In fact, I remember a specific laser enthusiast saying that laser light is
just 'well trained', and that apart from that there is nothign special about
it that cannot be described by 'normal' optical theory.

On 10/9/2014 5:14 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

When a proton is accelerated and the mass quadruples, where does that
extra mass come from?

--

Rick

rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 5:14 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

When a proton is accelerated and the mass quadruples, where does that
extra mass come from?

Photons are not accelerated; they either exist and are travelling at the
speed of light (in the medium) or they don't exist.

And before you ask, the speed change in the local frame due to a change
in medium is instantaneous, which would be impossible if they had rest
mass.


--
Jim Pennino

On 10/9/2014 7:46 PM, wrote:
rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 5:14 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

When a proton is accelerated and the mass quadruples, where does that
extra mass come from?

Photons are not accelerated; they either exist and are travelling at the
speed of light (in the medium) or they don't exist.

And before you ask, the speed change in the local frame due to a change
in medium is instantaneous, which would be impossible if they had rest
mass.

No one has said a photon has rest mass. In fact it is impossible for it
to have rest mass since it can never be at rest...

--

Rick

On 10/9/2014 7:04 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 5:14 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

When a proton is accelerated and the mass quadruples, where does that
extra mass come from?


It comes from the energy used in the acceleration of the proton, based
on Einstein's equations. Mass and energy are just different
manifestations of the same thing.

But by definition, anything moving at the speed of light must be
massless, because it takes an infinite amount of energy to accelerate
even an electron to that speed. Which means a photon cannot have mass.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

On 10/9/2014 9:15 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 7:04 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 5:14 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

When a proton is accelerated and the mass quadruples, where does that
extra mass come from?


It comes from the energy used in the acceleration of the proton, based
on Einstein's equations. Mass and energy are just different
manifestations of the same thing.

So why do you have trouble understanding where the relativistic mass of
a photon comes from? Is the exact same thing but without the rest mass.


But by definition, anything moving at the speed of light must be
massless, because it takes an infinite amount of energy to accelerate
even an electron to that speed. Which means a photon cannot have mass.

Yes, it has no *rest mass*. The rest mass is what limits the
acceleration. You are thinking in a circle and you can't seem to get
out of the loop. Rest mass vs. relativistic mass. One is present even
at rest while the other is a result of the energy added as a function of
its speed.

--

Rick

On 10/9/2014 9:56 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 9:15 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 7:04 PM, rickman wrote:
On 10/9/2014 5:14 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 10/9/2014 1:04 PM, rickman wrote:

The only mass a photon has is that which is equivalent to its
energy, E
= mc^2.


I understand it has no rest math. But where does the mass come from?
There has to be mass to exert pressure. Does the mass just appear from
nowhere? I doubt it...

When a proton is accelerated and the mass quadruples, where does that
extra mass come from?


It comes from the energy used in the acceleration of the proton, based
on Einstein's equations. Mass and energy are just different
manifestations of the same thing.

So why do you have trouble understanding where the relativistic mass of
a photon comes from? Is the exact same thing but without the rest mass.


But if it's moving at the speed of light, it can't have any mass.
Einstein did not differentiate between rest mass and relativistic mass.


But by definition, anything moving at the speed of light must be
massless, because it takes an infinite amount of energy to accelerate
even an electron to that speed. Which means a photon cannot have mass.

Yes, it has no *rest mass*. The rest mass is what limits the
acceleration. You are thinking in a circle and you can't seem to get
out of the loop. Rest mass vs. relativistic mass. One is present even
at rest while the other is a result of the energy added as a function of
its speed.


No, I'm not thinking in circles. According to Einstein, mass is mass.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================