Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Speaking of dipole antennas, I did this study a while back:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/index.html
Animated version:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/slides/animated-v-dipole.html
It's a 1/2 wave dipole at various heights above a real ground. Any
semblance to textbook dipole pattern is long gone.

Yep, ground has a huge effect on some types of antennas.

An instructive slide show would be the vertical pattern of a horizontal
1/2 dipole at .1, .2, ... .5 wavelengths over ground.

Another one would be a 3 element beam at those heights.

I also did a study of monopoles of various lengths above a ground.
There are a few that are less than 1/4 wave long which should help
with some short antenna phenomenon.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Monopole/index.html
Length Gain
wl dBi
0.050 4.75
0.125 4.85
0.250 5.19
0.500 6.96
0.625 8.01
Notice that the gain doesn't really drop very much when the monopole
is shorter than 1/4 wavelength long. A 1/2 wave dipole exhibits a
similar lack of gain loss for short antennas. So, why are short
antennas generally frowned upon? Lots of reasons but the big one are
losses in the matching networks. the 0.050 wavelength antenna looks
like about 700 ohms impedance. The 0.125 antenna is about

Nope, the vertical does the same thing when shortened from 1/4 as a
dipole shortened from 1/2 wave.



--
Jim Pennino

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:04:07 -0000, wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Speaking of dipole antennas, I did this study a while back:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/index.html
Animated version:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/slides/animated-v-dipole.html
It's a 1/2 wave dipole at various heights above a real ground. Any
semblance to textbook dipole pattern is long gone.

Yep, ground has a huge effect on some types of antennas.

An instructive slide show would be the vertical pattern of a horizontal
1/2 dipole at .1, .2, ... .5 wavelengths over ground.

Another one would be a 3 element beam at those heights.

I can do both of these, but I'm busy/lazy this weekend. I also can't
find the program I used to create the annimated GIF file. Argh. It
would also be helpful if someone would specify the frequency range of
interest.

I also did a study of monopoles of various lengths above a ground.
There are a few that are less than 1/4 wave long which should help
with some short antenna phenomenon.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Monopole/index.html
Length Gain
wl dBi
0.050 4.75
0.125 4.85
0.250 5.19
0.500 6.96
0.625 8.01
Notice that the gain doesn't really drop very much when the monopole
is shorter than 1/4 wavelength long. A 1/2 wave dipole exhibits a
similar lack of gain loss for short antennas. So, why are short
antennas generally frowned upon? Lots of reasons but the big one are
losses in the matching networks. the 0.050 wavelength antenna looks
like about 700 ohms impedance. The 0.125 antenna is about

Nope, the vertical does the same thing when shortened from 1/4 as a
dipole shortened from 1/2 wave.

Thanks, that's what I meant to say but never finished the posting. I
had to run and clicked "send" before I was finished scribbling the
last paragraph.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:04:07 -0000, wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Speaking of dipole antennas, I did this study a while back:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/index.html
Animated version:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/slides/animated-v-dipole.html
It's a 1/2 wave dipole at various heights above a real ground. Any
semblance to textbook dipole pattern is long gone.

Yep, ground has a huge effect on some types of antennas.

An instructive slide show would be the vertical pattern of a horizontal
1/2 dipole at .1, .2, ... .5 wavelengths over ground.

Another one would be a 3 element beam at those heights.

I can do both of these, but I'm busy/lazy this weekend. I also can't
find the program I used to create the annimated GIF file. Argh. It
would also be helpful if someone would specify the frequency range of
interest.

It doesn't matter if everything is done in wavelengths.

I guess there are some who would want to see that a 160 meter dipole
at say .2 wavelengths high has the same pattern as a 2 meter dipole
at .2 wavelengths if for no other reason than to be assured the effects
are frequency independant.



--
Jim Pennino

On 10/12/2014 12:41 AM, wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:04:07 -0000, wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Speaking of dipole antennas, I did this study a while back:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/index.html
Animated version:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/slides/animated-v-dipole.html
It's a 1/2 wave dipole at various heights above a real ground. Any
semblance to textbook dipole pattern is long gone.

Yep, ground has a huge effect on some types of antennas.

An instructive slide show would be the vertical pattern of a horizontal
1/2 dipole at .1, .2, ... .5 wavelengths over ground.

Another one would be a 3 element beam at those heights.

I can do both of these, but I'm busy/lazy this weekend. I also can't
find the program I used to create the annimated GIF file. Argh. It
would also be helpful if someone would specify the frequency range of
interest.

It doesn't matter if everything is done in wavelengths.

I guess there are some who would want to see that a 160 meter dipole
at say .2 wavelengths high has the same pattern as a 2 meter dipole
at .2 wavelengths if for no other reason than to be assured the effects
are frequency independant.

Something else might be interesting; include the effects of sag
(centenary) in a wire antenna. Has anyone done that? I mean, using EZNEC
or NEC modeling.

On 10/12/2014 10:20 AM, John S wrote:
On 10/12/2014 12:41 AM, wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:04:07 -0000, wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Speaking of dipole antennas, I did this study a while back:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/index.html
Animated version:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/vertical-dipole/slides/animated-v-dipole.html

It's a 1/2 wave dipole at various heights above a real ground. Any
semblance to textbook dipole pattern is long gone.

Yep, ground has a huge effect on some types of antennas.

An instructive slide show would be the vertical pattern of a horizontal
1/2 dipole at .1, .2, ... .5 wavelengths over ground.

Another one would be a 3 element beam at those heights.

I can do both of these, but I'm busy/lazy this weekend. I also can't
find the program I used to create the annimated GIF file. Argh. It
would also be helpful if someone would specify the frequency range of
interest.

It doesn't matter if everything is done in wavelengths.

I guess there are some who would want to see that a 160 meter dipole
at say .2 wavelengths high has the same pattern as a 2 meter dipole
at .2 wavelengths if for no other reason than to be assured the effects
are frequency independant.

Something else might be interesting; include the effects of sag
(centenary) in a wire antenna. Has anyone done that? I mean, using EZNEC
or NEC modeling.


Arrgh! Catenary instead of what I posted. Damn spell checker is dumb on
a lot of math and engineering terms. Sorry

John S wrote in :

Catenary instead of what I posted.

Yes. I should have read your second post before my first reply..

On 10/12/2014 11:19 AM, Lostgallifreyan wrote:
John S wrote in :

Catenary instead of what I posted.

Yes. I should have read your second post before my first reply..

No problem. Your reply was completely appropriate. We might be just a
bit out of sink (he, he) sync. Let's not get too serious.

John S wrote in :

Something else might be interesting; include the effects of sag
(centenary) in a wire antenna.

Agreed. I was thinking about that possibility last night. Meaning 'catenary',
perhaps? As in 'hanging chain'? I doubt any longwire would lack this, so
modelling it would be useful.

On 10/12/2014 11:18 AM, Lostgallifreyan wrote:
John S wrote in :

Something else might be interesting; include the effects of sag
(centenary) in a wire antenna.

Agreed. I was thinking about that possibility last night. Meaning 'catenary',
perhaps? As in 'hanging chain'? I doubt any longwire would lack this, so
modelling it would be useful.


This is an interesting modeling situation. After you get acquainted with
your modeling software of choice, let's work on it to see what
differences there are. We can compare notes, if you like. Sound like
fun? If so, let's start another thread, yes?

John S wrote in :

On 10/12/2014 11:18 AM, Lostgallifreyan wrote:
John S wrote in :

Something else might be interesting; include the effects of sag
(centenary) in a wire antenna.

Agreed. I was thinking about that possibility last night. Meaning
'catenary', perhaps? As in 'hanging chain'? I doubt any longwire would
lack this, so modelling it would be useful.


This is an interesting modeling situation. After you get acquainted with
your modeling software of choice, let's work on it to see what
differences there are. We can compare notes, if you like. Sound like
fun? If so, let's start another thread, yes?


I won't be up to speed that fast, but once I have something that doesn't look
like it will waste people's time I'll have a go. I did look up catenary
curves some time back for some forgotten purpose (actually, I think is was
to do with loads on lengthy beams in a PV installation) so I have some idea
where to start looking, maybe. I'm assuming that the pysical properties would
relate to the electrical ones in some way, but it's not something I've
thought through.