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#11
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"Wes Stewart" wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:45:31 -0500, "John Smith" wrote: Freq (MHz) Impedance (Ohms) 410 46.4 + 6.0i (50 Ohm terminator) 380 9.7 - 12.5 390 3.5 - 5.7 400 5.1 + 1.3i 410 5.1 + 6.5i 415 4.0 + 10.0i 425 2.5 + 15.7i | 3) How well is your signal source terminated, in other words do you | know its source match? | | |I only know that the signal source is an HP 3200B. It directly feeds the |Narda dual directional coupler through a few feet of RG58. If I remember that correctly the '3200 is nothing but a p-p oscillator and a waveguide-below-cutoff probe. If your VVM reference probe readings are changing much between frequencies and/or calibration/measurement, try a 6 or 10 dB pad right on the generator output and see what happens. When you're calibrating using a short, the source Z has really got to be nailed down. Wes Okay. I repeated the test using an HP 355C attenuator set for 10 dB and at 400 MHz got 4 + 3i on the antenna. I also checked my 50 Ohm network terminator with this setup and it measured 44 + 4i. The data are different, but they're not an order of magnitude different, at least. So, although my measurements aren't repeatable, they are sloppily consistent. That is, although I can't say exactly what the antenna impedance is with confidence, I am beginning to believe that it really is very low in impedance. Am I drawing an erroneous conclusion too early? I can wait a little longer to draw an erroneous conclusion. John |
#12
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"John Smith" wrote in message ... "Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... Okay, then, I will present data measured this day for this antenna: http://www.sophisticatedsolutions.us...d%20Dipole.jpg This is shown in "Antennas for All Applications" on page 820, figure 23-17 (a). I built the antenna wholly from RG58. The center conductor of the right half is not connected at either end. It is 14.375 inches wide and averages a little less than .5 inches between the centers of the top and bottom conductors. Where the coax is shown exiting the antenna, is a female, flangeless, chassis mount, BNC connector so that I can replace the antenna with a short. My test set up is a VHF oscillator, a vector voltmeter, and a Narda dual directional coupler. I use a 66 inch piece of RG58 from the output of the directional coupler to go to the antenna. The short circuits I use are the best I could make from BNC connectors. The 50 Ohm load I used for comparative measurements is one of those used for network terminators. Yes, I am aware they are not instrumentation quality, but it's what I have. For a given frequency, I replace the antenna with the short and adjust the amplitude of the oscillator and the controls of the vector voltmeter so that the reference channel (A) is 10 mV and the phase is 180 degrees. I record channel B's amplitude. I then remove the short and connect the antenna. I then read and record channels A, channel B, and the phase. From these data I calculate the impedance (per HP's AN 77-3, thanks to Wes Stewart). The first item measured is the 50 Ohm terminator. I also measured it at the conclusion of the tests to see if there were any differences and there were none. Here are the results computed from the data: Freq (MHz) Impedance (Ohms) 410 46.4 + 6.0i (50 Ohm terminator) 380 9.7 - 12.5 390 3.5 - 5.7 400 5.1 + 1.3i 410 5.1 + 6.5i 415 4.0 + 10.0i 425 2.5 + 15.7i ........................................ John, Discounting the absolute values, the numbers seem to make sense, except for the 9.7. Might it have been 2.7? There seems to be resonance at around 400. The impedance goes more reactive in both directions from there, and the real part goes down monotonically, except for the 9.7 I looked at the picture, and it is not 100% obvious to me what gets connected at the balanced point. Just for kicks, I am going to try that, somewhere within the range of an MFJ269. Tam/WB2TT Hi, Tam - I will try to repeat the test at that frequency. By the balanced point, I assume you mean at the bottom center. It is a female BNC connector, facing downward. A halfwave length of RG58 goes off the left side and folds. The coax is soldered in normal fashion to the connector. Another halfwave piece of RG58 goes off the right side and folds. The center conductor of the right side piece is not connected on either end. The shield of the right side coax is soldered to the shell of the BNC and the two pices of coax is joined as shown in the figure. If by the balanced point you meant at the top center of the figure, the center conductor only of the left side coax is soldered to the shield only of the right side coax. If this description is not clear, let me know and I'll try again. I would take a picture and make it available, but I'm afraid it would only confuse due to lack of detail. Thanks, John John, This turned out simpler than I thought. I did a quick and dirty test with a folded dipole made up of two 3 foot pieces of RG58, and a feedline 1/2 WL at 160 MHz. Unfortunately, this puts me too close to the upper limit of the MFJ, but you can see what happens. BTW, I meant the top for the balanced point. Turns out it makes no difference whether the center conductor of the left side is connected to the center conductor, or the shield, of the right side. My numbers: F R X 145 30 89 150 10 60 155 ? 7? 14? This looks like 165 160 8 25 165 7 13 170.25 6 0 175 5 14 I would say that if anything, my numbers make less sense than yours. I also got a reading of 1+j0 at about 65 MHz. Don't know what that means, other than a dead short. I will hook it up as a regular folded dipole, and see if I get anything like 300 Ohms. Probably tomorrow. Was this claimed to be a 50 Ohm antenna? Tam/WB2TT |
#13
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On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:30:19 -0500, "John Smith"
wrote: The Narda coupler has no calibration plate. It says model 30611, serial no. 4235. It also appears to have been made for Motorola, as their part number appears on it. Hi John, This is not a NARDA model number according to their own catalogue, although I see it described as NARDA in more than one ebay auction. I would say this is a special run for Motorola (which is probably their contract number with NARDA). However, all ebay auctions list this as an 960 MHz device. Typically, directional couplers are within their nominal ratings only over a octave range and some of those octaves from within their catalogue are 500 MHz to 1 GHz. Others are 450 MHz to 900 MHz. Some are listed as 0.05 GHz to 1 GHz, but the coupling is VERY MUCH different than nominal outside the octave range (by as much as 10 - 15 dB). Generally, you don't suffer this much variation near the octave band edges, but they do track off from their otherwise flat response. It looks like you need to measure the coupling directly (at both ports) across your frequencies of interest. The coupling factor is not so important as is the ports tracking. I will discuss the raw and finished data separately. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#14
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On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:30:19 -0500, "John Smith"
wrote: 400 5.1 + 1.3i Reference Measurement Freq A1 B1 ?1 A2 B2 ?2 400 1 0.79 180 1.08 0.695 177 Hi John, Well, from the two results above, and referencing my copy of Appl. Note 77-3, Page 7, section "Measuring Rho 100 to 1000 MHz," there are a number of issues here. Your B1/A1 is quite off the mark (but certainly correctable, afterall, that is the purpose of its measurement). |Rho| = B2·A1/A2·B1 = 0.695·1/1.08·0.79 = 0.815 Casting the magnitude and angle onto a Smith Chart would suggest your 5.1 + 1.3i Ohms is close enough given your data. The only kicker is port tracking, but I have a hunch that probably is not an issue. This bears further consideration. Too bad Kraus did not choose to elaborate. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#15
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On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 15:19:41 -0500, "John Smith"
wrote: Okay, then, I will present data measured this day for this antenna: http://www.sophisticatedsolutions.us...d%20Dipole.jpg This is shown in "Antennas for All Applications" on page 820, figure 23-17 (a). Just an off the cuff remark and a possible clue. It's not clear from the picture or explanation if the center conductor is continious from the right half of the antenna to the left. I understand the center conductor does not connect to the right half at the T. For the case that it does continue: Looking that the picture, if the right side were parallel to the left I'd call that a 1/4 wave 1:1 balun with a shorted load connected rather than an antenna. That would result in a significant reactance or a short depending on frequency. The sorted load would be the continued centor conductor in the right half. For the case that it does Not continue: I'd call that a 1/4 wave 1:1 balun with an open load connected rather than an antenna. That would result in a significant reactance again. There is a third case: A connect dot is missing at the junction of the center conductor where it meets the shield of the right loop (top center). If the lengths were ~1/4 wave for each side then the impedence at the center would be high for the left center conductor and the right shield and that would likely be a tuneable folded dipole. Did I miss something about the antenna design? As drawn it looks like an attempt to take a parallel line balun (coax with a 1/4wave 1:1 balun) and make it serve as a radiator. There is detail missing one possible dimensions and other connections. FYI: if you used one of those cheap eithernet Tees to create the junction, I've found them to be very poor at UHF. Use a good quality one with TFE insulation and test it seperately first. Allison |
#16
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wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 15:19:41 -0500, "John Smith" wrote: Okay, then, I will present data measured this day for this antenna: http://www.sophisticatedsolutions.us...d%20Dipole.jpg This is shown in "Antennas for All Applications" on page 820, figure 23-17 (a). Just an off the cuff remark and a possible clue. It's not clear from the picture or explanation if the center conductor is continious from the right half of the antenna to the left. I understand the center conductor does not connect to the right half at the T. The center conductor in the right half is not used at all. The right half should actually be a piece of coax with the center conductor removed. For the case that it does continue: Looking that the picture, if the right side were parallel to the left I'd call that a 1/4 wave 1:1 balun with a shorted load connected rather than an antenna. That would result in a significant reactance or a short depending on frequency. The sorted load would be the continued centor conductor in the right half. For the case that it does Not continue: I'd call that a 1/4 wave 1:1 balun with an open load connected rather than an antenna. That would result in a significant reactance again. There is a third case: A connect dot is missing at the junction of the center conductor where it meets the shield of the right loop (top center). If the lengths were ~1/4 wave for each side then the impedence at the center would be high for the left center conductor and the right shield and that would likely be a tuneable folded dipole. Did I miss something about the antenna design? The center conductor of the left side is connected to the shield of the right side. The shield of the left side is not connected at the top center. As drawn it looks like an attempt to take a parallel line balun (coax with a 1/4wave 1:1 balun) and make it serve as a radiator. There is detail missing one possible dimensions and other connections. FYI: if you used one of those cheap eithernet Tees to create the junction, I've found them to be very poor at UHF. Use a good quality one with TFE insulation and test it seperately first. Allison I wound up not using a T. I simply soldered all connections to a BNC connector at the bottom center of the figure. John |
#17
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"Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... "Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... Okay, then, I will present data measured this day for this antenna: http://www.sophisticatedsolutions.us...d%20Dipole.jpg This is shown in "Antennas for All Applications" on page 820, figure 23-17 (a). I built the antenna wholly from RG58. The center conductor of the right half is not connected at either end. It is 14.375 inches wide and averages a little less than .5 inches between the centers of the top and bottom conductors. Where the coax is shown exiting the antenna, is a female, flangeless, chassis mount, BNC connector so that I can replace the antenna with a short. My test set up is a VHF oscillator, a vector voltmeter, and a Narda dual directional coupler. I use a 66 inch piece of RG58 from the output of the directional coupler to go to the antenna. The short circuits I use are the best I could make from BNC connectors. The 50 Ohm load I used for comparative measurements is one of those used for network terminators. Yes, I am aware they are not instrumentation quality, but it's what I have. For a given frequency, I replace the antenna with the short and adjust the amplitude of the oscillator and the controls of the vector voltmeter so that the reference channel (A) is 10 mV and the phase is 180 degrees. I record channel B's amplitude. I then remove the short and connect the antenna. I then read and record channels A, channel B, and the phase. From these data I calculate the impedance (per HP's AN 77-3, thanks to Wes Stewart). The first item measured is the 50 Ohm terminator. I also measured it at the conclusion of the tests to see if there were any differences and there were none. Here are the results computed from the data: Freq (MHz) Impedance (Ohms) 410 46.4 + 6.0i (50 Ohm terminator) 380 9.7 - 12.5 390 3.5 - 5.7 400 5.1 + 1.3i 410 5.1 + 6.5i 415 4.0 + 10.0i 425 2.5 + 15.7i ........................................ John, Discounting the absolute values, the numbers seem to make sense, except for the 9.7. Might it have been 2.7? There seems to be resonance at around 400. The impedance goes more reactive in both directions from there, and the real part goes down monotonically, except for the 9.7 I looked at the picture, and it is not 100% obvious to me what gets connected at the balanced point. Just for kicks, I am going to try that, somewhere within the range of an MFJ269. Tam/WB2TT Hi, Tam - I will try to repeat the test at that frequency. By the balanced point, I assume you mean at the bottom center. It is a female BNC connector, facing downward. A halfwave length of RG58 goes off the left side and folds. The coax is soldered in normal fashion to the connector. Another halfwave piece of RG58 goes off the right side and folds. The center conductor of the right side piece is not connected on either end. The shield of the right side coax is soldered to the shell of the BNC and the two pices of coax is joined as shown in the figure. If by the balanced point you meant at the top center of the figure, the center conductor only of the left side coax is soldered to the shield only of the right side coax. If this description is not clear, let me know and I'll try again. I would take a picture and make it available, but I'm afraid it would only confuse due to lack of detail. Thanks, John John, This turned out simpler than I thought. I did a quick and dirty test with a folded dipole made up of two 3 foot pieces of RG58, and a feedline 1/2 WL at 160 MHz. Unfortunately, this puts me too close to the upper limit of the MFJ, but you can see what happens. BTW, I meant the top for the balanced point. Turns out it makes no difference whether the center conductor of the left side is connected to the center conductor, or the shield, of the right side. My numbers: F R X 145 30 89 150 10 60 155 ? 7? 14? This looks like 165 160 8 25 165 7 13 170.25 6 0 175 5 14 I would say that if anything, my numbers make less sense than yours. I also got a reading of 1+j0 at about 65 MHz. Don't know what that means, other than a dead short. I will hook it up as a regular folded dipole, and see if I get anything like 300 Ohms. Probably tomorrow. Was this claimed to be a 50 Ohm antenna? Tam/WB2TT Hey, Tam! This is great information! According to the dimensions, it should be resonant at 173 MHz. (Close enough... I subtracted 1 inch on each side for the loop). Your 6 Ohms is close enough to my 5 Ohms to satisfy me that I'm not getting useless measurements. I wouldn't worry about the 65 MHz reading, as that's so far away from resonance that it is probably acting like a shorted half wave transmission line or some other kind of crazy network. No, there was no statement given about the antenna impedance. That's why I started this thread. I was interested in the antenna because: 1. It is at DC ground. 2. It is a half wave, giving a nice omnidirectional pattern if mounted vertically. 3. No balun is needed as it is inherent. However, it appears to be not worthwhile after all, owing to its low feedpoint impedance. I really appreciate you taking the time to perform your experiment. I'm now convinced that the antenna is next to worthless. Thanks, John (KD5YI) |
#18
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"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:30:19 -0500, "John Smith" wrote: 400 5.1 + 1.3i Reference Measurement Freq A1 B1 ?1 A2 B2 ?2 400 1 0.79 180 1.08 0.695 177 Hi John, Well, from the two results above, and referencing my copy of Appl. Note 77-3, Page 7, section "Measuring Rho 100 to 1000 MHz," there are a number of issues here. Your B1/A1 is quite off the mark (but certainly correctable, afterall, that is the purpose of its measurement). |Rho| = B2·A1/A2·B1 = 0.695·1/1.08·0.79 = 0.815 Casting the magnitude and angle onto a Smith Chart would suggest your 5.1 + 1.3i Ohms is close enough given your data. The only kicker is port tracking, but I have a hunch that probably is not an issue. This bears further consideration. Too bad Kraus did not choose to elaborate. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC I don't understand. Please enumerate the issues. What do you mean B1/A1 is off the mark? If they are off the mark, how can the Z be close enough? Are you saying that I have calculated the Z correctly from the data and you think port tracking is not at fault? What further consideration? You're right. Too bad Kraus didn't tell the feedpoint impedance. I suspect I would not have embarked on this folly if he had. The antenna may have its uses elsewhere, but I don't need the headaches of matching 5 Ohms at 440 MHz. John |
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On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:10:19 -0500, "John Smith"
wrote: I don't understand. Please enumerate the issues. What do you mean B1/A1 is off the mark? Hi John, You should get 1.0 @ 180° (the definition of a short). If they are off the mark, how can the Z be close enough? Because what you DID measure, was used as a correction factor per: |Rho| = B2·A1/A2·B1 = 0.695·1/1.08·0.79 = 0.815 (or you skipped that step) Are you saying that I have calculated the Z correctly from the data and you think port tracking is not at fault? Well, that is really your job to confirm or deny. There is very little I can accomplish short of that. What further consideration? I suppose I could visit my Engineering Library. I will be on campus for my Nanotechnology seminar today anyway. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#20
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"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:10:19 -0500, "John Smith" wrote: I don't understand. Please enumerate the issues. What do you mean B1/A1 is off the mark? Hi John, You should get 1.0 @ 180° (the definition of a short). Well, that's not possible when feeding a length of RG58 at 400 MHz, is it? Remember, I said that there was about a 5 foot length of RG58 between the directional coupler and the load. How can one get 1.0 reflected to the coupler when the load is a short? That requires zero loss coax. If they are off the mark, how can the Z be close enough? Because what you DID measure, was used as a correction factor per: |Rho| = B2·A1/A2·B1 = 0.695·1/1.08·0.79 = 0.815 (or you skipped that step) I did that. As far as I can determine, I did it like the HP application note said to do it. Thanks for your comments. John |
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