Tom Donaly wrote:
I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you , Cecil; as you say,
been there, done that.

Don't want to argue, Tom. I just want you to make a posting that
contains some iota of technical content. My ten-year-old grand-neice
could easily have thought up your last dozen (mostly ad-hominem) postings.

I know there are people in the past who have
attempted to characterize antennas as transmission lines. It's an
old, hoary method. You have a copy of Balanis. He has references you
can look up to see how close your ideas are to the truth.

Since you brought up Balanis, here are some quotes from Chapter 10 of
his book that should impress you:

"The sinusoidal current distribution of long open-ended linear antennas
is a standing wave constructed by two waves of equal amplitude and 180
deg phase difference at the open-end TRAVELING IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS
along its length" page 488 (emphasis mine)

"THE CURRENT AND VOLTAGE DISTRIBUTIONS ON OPEN-ENDED WIRE ANTENNAS ARE
SIMILAR TO THE STANDING WAVE PATTERNS ON OPEN-ENDED TRANSMISSION LINES."
Page 488 (emphasis mine)

"Standing wave antennas, such as the dipole, can be analyzed as traveling
wave antennas with waves propagating in opposite directions (forward and
backward) and represented by traveling wave currents If and Ib." page 489

Uhhhhh Tom, following Balanis' direction is EXACTLY what I have been doing.
Since you disagree with Balanis, it appears that you have never cracked
open his book. I, OTOH, have attended Balanis' antenna classes at ASU
and worked hand in hand with him on a joint Intel-ASU project.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Nope, I don't need to argue. I have a wife who is always willing
and ready to provide arguing services whenever I need them. I don't
need you.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH



Cecil, fuggetaboutit, don't waste your time, looks like this is one of those
smart alec trollers. Who cares what they "know".

Thanks for your contribution to the subject. Looks like I should put the
article together, looks like misguided "experts" are confusing the issue.
I hope to find some time now, WX is getting about right, time to get out the
gadgets and some real life measurements and modeling helixes in EZNEC.

73 Yuri, K3BU

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
Cecil, fuggetaboutit, don't waste your time, looks like this is one of those
smart alec trollers. Who cares what they "know".

Looks like Tom would rather argue with his wife than with Balanis or me.
(I don't blame him for that.) I had relatively long discussions with Balanis
and he personally agreed with everything I have posted although he didn't
go to such lengths in his book.

Thanks for your contribution to the subject. Looks like I should put the
article together, looks like misguided "experts" are confusing the issue.
I hope to find some time now, WX is getting about right, time to get out the
gadgets and some real life measurements and modeling helixes in EZNEC.

Who's going to publish it? I spent a lot of time preparing an article on
what happens at a match point and QEX refused to consider publishing
anything that disagreed in the slightest with Dr. Best who denied there
is such a thing as interference at a match point. (Hint: Without interference,
a match is impossible in a system with reflections.) There's a good-old-boys
network in amateur radio. If you are politically incorrect within the ARRL
political power structure, you are black-balled from publishing. It doesn't
matter if you are technically correct. The current through a loading coil
is constant by definition in that good-old-boys network. Forget reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Who's going to publish it? I spent a lot of time preparing an article on
what happens at a match point and QEX refused to consider publishing
anything that disagreed in the slightest with Dr. Best who denied there
is such a thing as interference at a match point. (Hint: Without
interference,
a match is impossible in a system with reflections.) There's a good-old-boys
network in amateur radio. If you are politically incorrect within the ARRL
political power structure, you are black-balled from publishing. It doesn't
matter if you are technically correct. The current through a loading coil
is constant by definition in that good-old-boys network. Forget reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


100% QSL
we can give it a try, there is always internet and e-Books.
It is amusing to see two versions of current in loading coil in ARRL published
books, one version in Antenna Book, Compendia and Handbook vs. other in ON4UN
Low Band DXing.

73 Yuri, K3BU.us

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
It is amusing to see two versions of current in loading coil in ARRL published
books, one version in Antenna Book, ...

Correction: Two versions in the ARRL Antenna Book. The first illustration,
Fig 7 on 16-4 in my 15th edition shows the current taper across the coil.
Fig 10 on 16-6 shows no current taper across the coil. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Cecil Moore wrote:
Yuri Blanarovich wrote:

Cecil, fuggetaboutit, don't waste your time, looks like this is one of
those
smart alec trollers. Who cares what they "know".


Looks like Tom would rather argue with his wife than with Balanis or me.
(I don't blame him for that.) I had relatively long discussions with
Balanis
and he personally agreed with everything I have posted although he didn't
go to such lengths in his book.


Suuuurrrre he did.





Thanks for your contribution to the subject. Looks like I should put the
article together, looks like misguided "experts" are confusing the issue.
I hope to find some time now, WX is getting about right, time to get
out the
gadgets and some real life measurements and modeling helixes in EZNEC.


Who's going to publish it? I spent a lot of time preparing an article on
what happens at a match point and QEX refused to consider publishing
anything that disagreed in the slightest with Dr. Best who denied there
is such a thing as interference at a match point. (Hint: Without
interference,
a match is impossible in a system with reflections.) There's a
good-old-boys
network in amateur radio. If you are politically incorrect within the ARRL
political power structure, you are black-balled from publishing. It doesn't
matter if you are technically correct. The current through a loading coil
is constant by definition in that good-old-boys network. Forget reality.

And now there's a cabal of old boys conspiring against you and Yuri.
This just keeps getting better and better. For those who really want to
know the truth, go to Tom Rauch's web site and read about loading coils.
(He doesn't use the term "current drop" once."
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Correction: Two versions in the ARRL Antenna Book. The first illustration,
Fig 7 on 16-4 in my 15th edition shows the current taper across the coil.
Fig 10 on 16-6 shows no current taper across the coil. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


You are right, also my "lucky" thirteenth edition (1974) has picture 15-6
showing current drop across the coil. Back in those days they were some smart
and knowledgeable editors at ARRL.

Cecil, you are merciles protector of the truth :-)

Yuri, K3BU.us

Tom Donaly wrote:
For those who really want to
know the truth, go to Tom Rauch's web site and read about loading coils.
(He doesn't use the term "current drop" once."

I'm glad you used "truth" instead of "facts". Tom's truth doesn't
agree with scientific fact. You guys have turned your "truth"
into a religion.

Is there a current drop in a transmission line from the current
maximum (loop) to the current minimum (node) when standing waves
are present?

Is there a current drop from the feedpoint of a helical 1/4WL
antenna to the tip of the antenna?

If a coil occupies 90 degrees of a standing-wave antenna or an
unterminated transmission line with reflections, the current
can be maximum at one end of the coil and zero at the other.
The electrical 3/4WL antenna below consists of 1/4WL of wire,
loading coil, and 1/4WL of wire. The net current at one end
of the coil could be one amp while the net current at the
other end of the coil is zero. If you don't understand that
fact, I feel sorry for you.

coil
Feedpoint---1/4WL wire---x-///////-y---1/4WL wire---

When the above antenna is made resonant, the net current at
'x' is zero while the net current at 'y' is maximum. How do
you explain a coil with zero current at the bottom and one
amp at the top? It happens all the time in distributed
networks.

If a coil occupies 180 degrees of a standing wave antenna or an
unterminated transmission line with reflections, the current
can be zero at both ends and maximum in the middle. Such a
configuration is illustrated in "Antennas for all Applications",
by Kraus and Marhefka on page 824.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

"The current and voltage distributions on open-ended wire antennas are
similar to the standing wave patterns on open-ended transmission lines ...
Standing wave antennas, such as the dipole, can be analyzed as traveling
wave antennas with waves propagating in opposite directions (forward and
backward) and represented by traveling wave currents If and Ib ..."
_Antenna_Theory_, Balanis, Second Edition, Chapter 10, page 488 & 489


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Cecil Moore wrote:
Tom Donaly wrote:

For those who really want to
know the truth, go to Tom Rauch's web site and read about loading coils.
(He doesn't use the term "current drop" once."


I'm glad you used "truth" instead of "facts". Tom's truth doesn't
agree with scientific fact. You guys have turned your "truth"
into a religion.

Is there a current drop in a transmission line from the current
maximum (loop) to the current minimum (node) when standing waves
are present?

Is there a current drop from the feedpoint of a helical 1/4WL
antenna to the tip of the antenna?

If a coil occupies 90 degrees of a standing-wave antenna or an
unterminated transmission line with reflections, the current
can be maximum at one end of the coil and zero at the other.
The electrical 3/4WL antenna below consists of 1/4WL of wire,
loading coil, and 1/4WL of wire. The net current at one end
of the coil could be one amp while the net current at the
other end of the coil is zero. If you don't understand that
fact, I feel sorry for you.

coil
Feedpoint---1/4WL wire---x-///////-y---1/4WL wire---

When the above antenna is made resonant, the net current at
'x' is zero while the net current at 'y' is maximum. How do
you explain a coil with zero current at the bottom and one
amp at the top? It happens all the time in distributed
networks.

If a coil occupies 180 degrees of a standing wave antenna or an
unterminated transmission line with reflections, the current
can be zero at both ends and maximum in the middle. Such a
configuration is illustrated in "Antennas for all Applications",
by Kraus and Marhefka on page 824.

Did you have fun writing that, Cecil? What makes you think the
variation in current in two seperate places of a coil carrying
A.C. is a "current drop?"
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
Cecil, you are merciless protector of the truth :-)

Guess that's why I receive no mercy. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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