|
Fractal Antennas
For a mid-UHF fractal antenna, what kind of power can be used to
transmit, 100 watts, 1000 watts, 10,000 watts...? |
For a mid-UHF fractal antenna, what kind of power can be used to
transmit, 100 watts, 1000 watts, 10,000 watts...? I've had such antennas at very high QRO, but not for ham use. Some designs, as with antennas in general, will arc at very high voltages. Others will not. It takes experience to pick the design that deals with the specs, including a HV spec. That's a commercial issue and beyond the scope of this NG. 73, Chip N1IR |
horde52 wrote:
For a mid-UHF fractal antenna, what kind of power can be used to transmit, 100 watts, 1000 watts, 10,000 watts...? Fractal antennas are a myth. I have yet to see one in QST or at the very least e-Bay®. |
Fractal antennas are a myth.
I have yet to see one in QST or at the very least e-Bay®. QST: They had their chance in 1994. E-bay:If your'e waiting for liquidation stock, good luck: be a lo-oooooong wait-)! 73, Chip N1IR |
It takes experience to pick the design that deals with the specs, including a
HV spec. That's a commercial issue and beyond the scope of this NG. Who sells them? "Commercial" indicates that such antennas are in production and being offered for sale. A "...if one tolerates bad manners, they grow worse. I must find the oaf who did this thing, explain to him his offense, give him a chance to apologise, then kill him." (R.A. Heinlein, "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls") |
|
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:01:07 GMT, Richard Clark
wrote: |On 20 Oct 2004 03:10:51 GMT, (AA) wrote: |Who sells them? "Commercial" indicates that such antennas are in production |and being offered for sale. |Look in the yellow pages under heating elements. ROTFLMAO |
Who sells them? "Commercial" indicates that such antennas are in production
and being offered for sale Yes. Drop me an e-mail and I'll be happy to provide details. 73, Chip N1IR |
Hit or myth, they still bring in the discussion.
|
Hit or myth, they still bring in the discussion.
No need. Not in this forum. 73, Chip N1IR |
Yes. Drop me an e-mail and I'll be happy to provide details.
73, Chip N1IR Why? You posted the "commercial" claim in a public forum, please reply to same. I simply would like to know....if such antennas are commercially available, then please provide a URL or sales site with the information on the antennas. As an engineer, I am always interested in new/different technology, thus the desire to look at a commercial unit application. Or are you getting Shakespearian on me? A |
Why? You posted the "commercial" claim in a public forum, please reply to
same. I simply would like to know....if such antennas are commercially available, then please provide a URL or sales site with the information on the antennas. As an engineer, I am always interested in new/different technology, thus the desire to look at a commercial unit application. Or are you getting Shakespearian on me? A Since I don't know who you are, it would be helpful to be professional and take it off line. Best wishes, Chip N1IR |
Hit or myth, they still bring in the discussion.
a Myth is as good as a mile |
Why? You posted the "commercial" claim in a public forum, please reply to
same. I simply would like to know....if such antennas are commercially available, then please provide a URL or sales site with the information on the antennas. As an engineer, I am always interested in new/different technology, thus the desire to look at a commercial unit application. Or are you getting Shakespearian on me? A Since I don't know who you are, it would be helpful to be professional and take it off line. Best wishes, Chip N1IR Simple request, complicated (non) answer. I merely ask for ONE commercial site using this technology. Your reply equals "no". Indeed, an answer worthy of Shakespeare. "Much Ado About Nothing." A |
Fractal antennas ... turned out to be useless. That's how I understand it.
It is not a myth, as someone here said it. Drawing "fractal dipole" is shown in "Antennas for all applications" - there is such a book. It, anecdotically, does not do you much of anything. Looks fancy, that's it. There were bunch of articles promising miracles, but it did not work according to the promises, otherwise we would hear about it, see them around. Andrey "AA" wrote in message ... Yes. Drop me an e-mail and I'll be happy to provide details. 73, Chip N1IR Why? You posted the "commercial" claim in a public forum, please reply to same. I simply would like to know....if such antennas are commercially available, then please provide a URL or sales site with the information on the antennas. As an engineer, I am always interested in new/different technology, thus the desire to look at a commercial unit application. Or are you getting Shakespearian on me? A |
There were bunch of articles promising miracles, but it did not work
according to the promises, otherwise we would hear about it, see them around. Very interesting. Can you point out the citations of these articles promising miracles? Also, how often do you hear about bacon? Or the wonders of frozen food? At some point, the new stuff mainstreams, and you won't hear as much about it:-) I, for one, am very happy with the point that the technology has reached. Let's see...British Columbia...hmmm...pipelines; hotels (you know where Banff is, right?); farm inventory; coffee shops; retail stores; yadayada. Look harder. You might learn something. 73, Chip N1IR |
On 19 Oct 2004 14:37:27 -0700, (horde52) wrote:
For a mid-UHF fractal antenna, what kind of power can be used to transmit, 100 watts, 1000 watts, 10,000 watts...? To All who endured the string of non-answers, Greetings! I cannot say that I could add anything substantial towards resolving your issues, however, the tenor of your questions leads me to believe you would appreciate some fundamentals on the topic. Visit: http://www.qsl.net/kb7qhc/antenna/fractal/index.htm I would warn you, if you do not have a high speed connection, some pages may take a while to download (also considering a slow server at times). The various links that you will find at this page constitute the single greatest exposure of the topic on the web (the commercial outfits are pedestrians along the freeway of information). There are more than 300 pages. illustrations (supported by pages of their higher resolution graphics) and technical details. Be forewarned there is nothing about construction details. Their mere appearance should yield the reason why. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
"Fractenna" wrote in message ... There were bunch of articles promising miracles, but it did not work according to the promises, otherwise we would hear about it, see them around. Very interesting. Can you point out the citations of these articles promising miracles? Let's do it differently: you point out single Cell phone, Wi-Fi or other consumer gadget that uses Fractal antenna. Point out any other application when the fractal antenna made difference. What specific advantages you can achieve using fractal pattern? Increase bandwidth to some degree, make it a bit smaller - it can be done in numerous other ways. What else? Let's turn to some empirics. Here is a website of the company claiming to be inventors of Fractal Antenna: Fractal Antenna Systems. http://www.fractalantenna.com/ They were making them since 1998 I guess, have patents, all that. Look at the antennas (the antennas look beautiful, btw, like jewelry) - they can make it for any applications. Yet we do not see those antennas. And it does not look like the guys swim in money. What does it tell us? Andrey |
"Fractenna" wrote in message ... There were bunch of articles promising miracles, but it did not work according to the promises, otherwise we would hear about it, see them around. Very interesting. Can you point out the citations of these articles promising miracles? Let's do it differently: you point out single Cell phone, Wi-Fi or other consumer gadget that uses Fractal antenna. Point out any other application when the fractal antenna made difference. What specific advantages you can achieve using fractal pattern? Increase bandwidth to some degree, make it a bit smaller - it can be done in numerous other ways. What else? Let's turn to some empirics. Here is a website of the company claiming to be inventors of Fractal Antenna: Fractal Antenna Systems. http://www.fractalantenna.com/ They were making them since 1998 I guess, have patents, all that. Look at the antennas (the antennas look beautiful, btw, like jewelry) - they can make it for any applications. Yet we do not see those antennas. And it does not look like the guys swim in money. What does it tell us? Andrey It tells us that you are not seeking info; it tells us that you have an agenda; it tells us that your interest has nothing to do with this NG:-) Have a pleasant day there, eh? 73, Chip N1IR |
Be forewarned there is nothing about construction details. Their mere
appearance should yield the reason why. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard, Just so everyone is warned yet again, I personally would describe your site as a combination of non-attributed extant knowledge; trivial irrelevancies; and interpretations that do not follow from the data. It avoids any real info in extraordinary detail. Much of it is just plain wrong. It is, as someone expert in the field, a poor source of info. Knowing that you are eager for you and yours to be tied up in something bigger than a mere amateur's web site, I feel that I am most happy to back up those statements formally, meaning--why wait? Let it really be on the public record:-)? That way LOTS of people will see why my statements are accurate and that your agenda is, well, not motivated by the love of knowledge with regards to this subject Your move, sport. It won't get resolved on a NG. 73, Chip N1IR |
"Fractenna" wrote in message ... There were bunch of articles promising miracles, but it did not work according to the promises, otherwise we would hear about it, see them around. Very interesting. Can you point out the citations of these articles promising miracles? Let's do it differently: you point out single Cell phone, Wi-Fi or other consumer gadget that uses Fractal antenna. Point out any other application when the fractal antenna made difference. Of course I could. But, even I can be convinced that a NG is not the site for commercial marketing, Andrey. No reason to do it differently; I have invited you to make citations So...maybe I and others will learn something? I will be happy to briefly discuss the technology and not the commercial products, however. There is no question that in some single band cases, there are many different solutions that will meet a highly compromised need. The value equation in performance and cost, does, shall we say, benefit from the huge design space available with fractal antenna designs in other circumstances. That is, 99% of real needs. The price of cell phone antennas has dropped from about $1.20USD to less than $0.09USD in the last 8 years. Let's say that in high volume (and for a given model, its actually not that high)the COGS is $0.06USD PU. Now pay the insurance premiums that the brain cancer litigation issue--an ongoing one, I might add-- adds. Suddenly, there's no reason to be in cell phones, unless you want to have a high chance of going out of business--as many antenna companies have; seems like one or two goes under every month or so. Obviously some folks want to continue to take that risk. I'm not going to provide a list for you of products on this NG: customers, from my observation, want the emphasis to be on their product and not on a component in that product. I certainly know of applications in those markets you describe, in addition to emerging markets along those lines. Of course, there is no reason why YOU can't spend some money and pop some tops. Fractal antennas have made profound differences in the lives of many in the last few years, through their unique benefits in: smaller size; widebandedness; multibandedness; embedded/covert placement, control of observables; and so on. The early adopters have embraced the technology, and wireless commercial sector you allude to, after a very tough 2003, is coming back well. So, you can see that the reality is very different from your statement. Or maybe you can't see that, in which case you should listen to someone who knows the reality. I hope this helps. If you have commercial interests you know where to reach me off NG. Otherwise, it all goes outside of the scope of this forum, doesn't it? 73, Chip N1IR |
Just so everyone is warned yet again, I personally would describe your site
as a combination of non-attributed extant knowledge; trivial irrelevancies; and interpretations that do not follow from the data. It avoids any real info in extraordinary detail. Much of it is just plain wrong. It is, as someone expert in the field, a poor source of info. Knowing that you are eager for you and yours to be tied up in something bigger than a mere amateur's web site, I feel that I am most happy to back up those statements formally, meaning--why wait? Let it really be on the public record:-)? That way LOTS of people will see why my statements are accurate and that your agenda is, well, not motivated by the love of knowledge with regards to this subject Your move, sport. It won't get resolved on a NG. Nice soliliquy...shows you "got sum learnin", as some say in this area....still haven't answered my question on the commercial availability of such antennas. Is anyone selling them so that a "normal" person could look at one? Website, retailer, wholesaler, etc?? If these things are so good, why is there only hyperbole and no commercially available applications? "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting." I would honestly like to see some indication that these things are a viable antenna. ¿Me intiendes? A |
s a website of the company claiming to be
inventors of Fractal Antenna: Fractal Antenna Systems. http://www.fractalantenna.com/ And I asked for "publicly accessable" info from Herr Doktor....he gave me the runaround; so, thank you for this link. Tho 25 bux for a reprinted article is a tad high......one could post a PDF rather easily. A |
And I asked for "publicly accessable" info from Herr Doktor....he gave me the
runaround; so, thank you for this link. Tho 25 bux for a reprinted article is a tad high......one could post a PDF rather easily. I gave you no runaround, sir. No one knows who you are, based upon your insistence on anonymoty. Professionals act like professionals and don't hide behind screennames. I gave you the opportunity to take it off-line, and you have refused to do so. So, let me offer you a second opportunity. Tell us who you are, and where you work, on this NG, and I will be glad to answer your questions here. 73, Chip N1IR |
"The proof of the pudding is in the tasting."
I would honestly like to see some indication that these things are a viable antenna. ¿Me intiendes? A Then be an Honest A(be) and tell us who you are. 73, Chip N1IR |
"Fractenna" wrote in message
... And I asked for "publicly accessable" info from Herr Doktor....he gave me the runaround; so, thank you for this link. Tho 25 bux for a reprinted article is a tad high......one could post a PDF rather easily. I gave you no runaround, sir. No one knows who you are, based upon your insistence on anonymoty. Professionals act like professionals and don't hide behind screennames. I gave you the opportunity to take it off-line, and you have refused to do so. So, let me offer you a second opportunity. Tell us who you are, and where you work, on this NG, and I will be glad to answer your questions here. 73, Chip N1IR I too would like to see the same information that Mr "A" is looking for. I've looked at the Fractantenna web site and there is only marketing info available. Mark M1MPW |
I've looked at the Fractantenna web site and there is only marketing info
available. Mark M1MPW Sure; Drop me a line. 73, Chip N1IR |
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:54:57 +0100, "Mark"
wrote: I've looked at the Fractantenna web site and there is only marketing info available. Hi Mark, And the intent in being obscure, or coy, is another marketing technique to churn a amateur newsgroup for commercial interest. When drawn into these banalities, the marketeer then steers the sucker through the maze of claims to elicit a public declaration "sure this looks good." Once having secured this admission from the prospect, the marketeer then has the leverage to ask "what is keeping you from giving me your money?" All very standard and by the book [consult the recent activities of Mr. Spitzer, Attorney General for New York for other material found in "the book"]. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Hi Mark,
And the intent in being obscure, or coy, is another marketing technique to churn a amateur newsgroup for commercial interest. When drawn into these banalities, the marketeer then steers the sucker through the maze of claims to elicit a public declaration "sure this looks good." Once having secured this admission from the prospect, the marketeer then has the leverage to ask "what is keeping you from giving me your money?" All very standard and by the book [consult the recent activities of Mr. Spitzer, Attorney General for New York for other material found in "the book"]. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC This READS like language, but it's impossible to know exactly what is being said: context; subject; predicate; and so on. So, what are you saying? Who is misleading who; churning who; undertaking "techno-fraud"; and so on. These are words you have used, now put them together; fill us in. Your answer Mr. Clark; not someone else's... 73, Chip N1IR |
Then be an Honest A(be) and tell us who you are.
This is a newsgroup...emails are harvested just to sell to spammers. You may not mind getting a ton of email, but I do. However, remove the obvious from my munged email and send the reply on over. Name is Andrew, company is privately held (Bradford International), I work with Sara Lee, Kayser Roth, Golden Lady, Grupo Synkro, and others. ¿Basta? And it was YOU who stated that this was "commercial"....not I, sir. Thus, it is up to you to prove so. BIIYC A |
This is a newsgroup...emails are harvested just to sell to spammers. You may
not mind getting a ton of email, but I do. However, remove the obvious from my munged email and send the reply on over. Name is Andrew, company is privately held (Bradford International), I work with Sara Lee, Kayser Roth, Golden Lady, Grupo Synkro, and others. ¿Basta? And it was YOU who stated that this was "commercial"....not I, sir. Thus, it is up to you to prove so. BIIYC A Well, so you want to be an Honest Andrew; good start. Pleased to meet you. Now, since you feel uncomfortable discussing who you really are (last name?), it seems to me you'd be most comfortable taking my original suggestion: take it off-line and ID. Look forward to your e-mail. 73, Chip N1IR |
Well, so you want to be an Honest Andrew; good start. Pleased to meet you.
Now, since you feel uncomfortable discussing who you really are (last name?), it seems to me you'd be most comfortable taking my original suggestion: take it off-line and ID. Look forward to your e-mail. 73, Chip N1IR Sheesh, how stubborn/bull-headed are you??? If my customers had to go thru this much to get info, I would have closed down years ago. You have my email addy...just send the bloody info. All I have asked for is info on who is using mandelbrot ("fractal") style antennas in a commercial application which can be accessed either via the 'Net or via literature which can be requested (i.e., a company which is producing such antennas for commercial sale). A |
Sheesh, how stubborn/bull-headed are you??? If my customers had to go thru
this much to get info, I would have closed down years ago. You have my email Please forget all the above. The customer just called...he has found a source of similar products in Europe and will be purchasing from them. A |
Sheesh, how stubborn/bull-headed are you??? If my customers had to go thru
this much to get info, I would have closed down years ago. I presume your customers have the advantage in that you identify yourself to them, Andrew. I have no idea who you are. As I said, drop me a line. I've already gone the extra mile. Best wishes, Chip N1IR |
Please forget all the above. The customer just called...he has found a
source of similar products in Europe and will be purchasing from them. A Then you can tell your customer that you failed to identify yourself and your customer's needs. Somehow, I suspect you will not do so. Cheers, Chip N1IR |
Then you can tell your customer that you failed to identify yourself and your
customer's needs. Somehow, I suspect you will not do so. Not only have been told, they wish not to be identified and agreed with the approach, as they're more interested in viable/available technology....the European company is under the same conditions (and it turns out that they have been following these exchanges). A |
I think this Fractenna guy is ... ? ... or something. He managed to argue
here with everyone who asked him questions. Now, does he really represent Fractal Antenna Systems? http://www.fractalantenna.com/ All the patents mentioned on this Website have single author: Nathan Cohen. If that's him and he makes all this noise on behalf of his company (pretty unrealistic assumption anyway) ... this is not a good way to market innovations, be it fractal antennas or anything. They may be good innovations then, just hindered by his approach. Andrey PS: If someone has commercial request for Antenna design, I can help too - I do it for living. No fractals, just whips, patches, dipoles, loops, arrays - everything from the classic books. I am an older guy. And of course, matching, tuning, conforming and any sorts of customization. I have several patents too, though I do not think of them as anything special. -- Andrey Gleener R&D Services Ltd. 4775 Gilpin Crt. Burnaby BC V5G 3A1 Tel: 604 844 7578 EMail: "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:54:57 +0100, "Mark" wrote: I've looked at the Fractantenna web site and there is only marketing info available. Hi Mark, And the intent in being obscure, or coy, is another marketing technique to churn a amateur newsgroup for commercial interest. When drawn into these banalities, the marketeer then steers the sucker through the maze of claims to elicit a public declaration "sure this looks good." Once having secured this admission from the prospect, the marketeer then has the leverage to ask "what is keeping you from giving me your money?" All very standard and by the book [consult the recent activities of Mr. Spitzer, Attorney General for New York for other material found in "the book"]. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
I think this Fractenna guy is ... ? ... or something. He managed to argue
here with everyone who asked him questions. Now, does he really represent Fractal Antenna Systems? http://www.fractalantenna.com/ All the patents mentioned on this Website have single author: Nathan Cohen. If that's him and he makes all this noise on behalf of his company (pretty unrealistic assumption anyway) ... this is not a good way to market innovations, be it fractal antennas or anything. They may be good innovations then, just hindered by his approach. Andrey PS: If someone has commercial request for Antenna design, I can help too - I do it for living. No fractals, just whips, patches, dipoles, loops, arrays - everything from the classic books. I am an older guy. And of course, matching, tuning, conforming and any sorts of customization. I have several patents too, though I do not think of them as anything special. -- Andrey Gleener R&D Services Ltd. 4775 Gilpin Crt. Burnaby BC V5G 3A1 Tel: 604 844 7578 EMail: Yup. Just what I expected. Get the competitor nonsense off the NG. It's interference of business. I hate to be right... Chip N1IR |
European company is under the same conditions (and it turns out that they
have been following these exchanges). A I would also be paranoid if I were them:-) Thanks for building up the data base though. 73, Chip N1IR |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:56 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com