ATU capacitors?
 

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:09:02 -0000, "Airy R.Bean" wrote:

| I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
| the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
| capacitors?

I make mine into Christmas decorations.
Stick in pairs using double sided foam pads, on monofilament fishing line.
Dangle a lot of these strings inside a window.

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:09:02 -0000, "Airy R.Bean"
wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

A little Googling would soon show you whether the critical factor,
which you doubtless have already determined from your preliminary
calculations is the loss tangent for the CD substrate, may well render
such a use as inadvisable.
--
from
Aero Spike

Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?

Do a web search about this - plenty of info - though you claim you don't
web search.

David.

"David Edmonds" wrote in message
...
Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?

Do a web search about this - plenty of info - though you claim you don't
web search.

Superficially the idea has some merit but you would have to machine the
discs anyway (they are totally symetrical and thus the area overlapping with
the fixed vanes wouldn't change). By the time you've machined then to be
asysmetric, might as well have made metal plates and avoid all the other
problems as well.

To problems in making variable Cs, the use of a CDROMs offers little.

Etching plates on PCB and using the fibre glass for the mechanical side is
maybe a better idea.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

Hardly - you have the cost of purchase and the inconvenience of
etching. Junk mail cd's are free issue.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
Etching plates on PCB and using the fibre glass for the mechanical side is
maybe a better idea.

I wonder if there is any merit in using aluminum foil
duct tape to make a capacitor?
"Airy R.Bean" wrote in message
...
I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

1. We already have a form that is circular (no waste) and
with an accurately-positioned central hole.

2. There is a metallic film sandwiched between the plastic.

3. Is this film to thin to stand up to the RF currents that
will spread out across it when charging & discharging?

4. How would we make metallic contact to the film without
destroying the film at the point of contact?

5. Does anybody know the type of metal making up the film, i.e.,
can we solder to it?

6. Is the plastic of a suitable quality? Will it arc-through?

"Radio Man" wrote in message
news:SbyFd.20564$lG.19133@trnddc03...
I wonder if there is any merit in using aluminum foil
duct tape to make a capacitor?

I wonder what the background to you idea is?

New approaches to existing designs should offer one or more of:

Cost savings (cheaper materials, less man hours, ease of manufacture etc)
Better reliability and/or life (not the same thing by the way)
Extra functionality

For most things, the cost of materials is not a cost driver- the cost of the
material in a variable capacitor is dwarfed by the labour and machining
costs.

So, how does using duct tape help?

The CD idea falls flat as, while they may be cheap, the amount of machining
'saved' is mininmal. I suppose if you are totally strapped for cash, out of
work and with time on your hands, they may offer some advantage, but you
end up with a 'product' of inferior quality. Engineers who are driven by
such a penny pinching approach usually end up bankrupting their company as
their products are poor.


--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

"Machining"? What, cutting with a pair of scissors?

There's considerably more machining involved in your
proposal to use etched PCB.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
The CD idea falls flat as, while they may be cheap, the amount of
machining
'saved' is mininmal. I

The proposal to investigate the use of junk-mail CD's
seems to meet your very first criterion.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
New approaches to existing designs should offer one or more of:

Cost savings (cheaper materials, less man hours, ease of manufacture etc)

"Extra Functionality! - What "Extra Functionality" do you
envisage in a variable capacitor?!!!!!

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

New approaches to existing designs should offer one or more of:
Extra functionality

You don't seem to have the qualities that makes
for a _REAL_ Radio Ham, OM!

There are no labour costs when you do things for yourself!

There are no machining costs in cutting up a CD with a pair of scissors.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

For most things, the cost of materials is not a cost driver- the cost of
the
material in a variable capacitor is dwarfed by the labour and machining
costs.

"David Edmonds" wrote in message
...
Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?

Do a web search about this - plenty of info - though you claim you don't
web search.

And if your realy bored http://www.scitoys.com/

"David Edmonds" wrote in message
...
Airy R.Bean wrote:

I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?


Just like the TMC days. One daft idea after another.

"Airy R.Bean" wrote in message
...
I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

These would be the CDs returned with your defective, over priced, operating
system on them?

You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots of
posts sent in anger.

I love it.

Just like the TMC days.

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: Etching plates on PCB and using the fibre glass for the mechanical side is
: maybe a better idea.


hey everybody...brian has made capacitors (or is that capacitErs ?)

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: "Radio Man" wrote in message
: news:SbyFd.20564$lG.19133@trnddc03...
: I wonder if there is any merit in using aluminum foil
: duct tape to make a capacitor?


well done!

you got a BIG BITE with that one.

Nimrod wrote:
You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots of
posts sent in anger.

Yes - I thought that too - from a very 'constructive' response to one
that has a pop-shot at Brian's former employment for no reason at all
then, despite Airy's "I don't attack" claims, gets straight in there
with the 'bull****ting' line. Oh well. Obviously the Special Brew has
worn off.

He'll be along claiming malicious deleting next....;-)

David.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:


You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots of
posts sent in anger.

I love it.

Just like the TMC days.

The reason for the multiple posts is that it's the only way he can
top-post responses to individual points made in the previous post. I
think his record is about 10 replies to one post. And still he thinks
top-posting is the way to go.

Nimrod wrote:
"David Edmonds" wrote in message
...

Airy R.Bean wrote:


I wonder if there is any mileage to be had from adapting
the numerous junk-mail CD's as the vanes of ATU
capacitors?

So you've given up on using them to make 30 line television systems then?



Just like the TMC days. One daft idea after another.



I remember turning vinyl discs into flower pots, but some of us have
moved on since then.
--
;)
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
http://turner-smith.co.uk

"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:


You can always tell when Gareth has lost the game and is wound up - lots
of
posts sent in anger.

I love it.

Just like the TMC days.

The reason for the multiple posts is that it's the only way he can
top-post responses to individual points made in the previous post. I
think his record is about 10 replies to one post. And still he thinks
top-posting is the way to go.


Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

If we just ignore his rude posts (or the bits of his few other posts that
are rude), the problem would go away. Sometimes some of the stuff I seen
responded to recently hasn't been that bad- maybe his engineering skills are
wanting but this is a forum to ask questions. If he could just stop being so
rude and negative I'd happily try and help him learn.

Thing is, he seems to see every mention of failure as a reference to him. I
can only assume he has very low self esteem. This does make helping him a
challenge. Pity we don't have an SEN teacher in the group- they would be
ideal to advise us on the best plan. He could draw up an IEP for him.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:


Pity we don't have an SEN teacher in the group- they would be
ideal to advise us on the best plan. He could draw up an IEP for him.


ROTFLMAO

Priceless Brian, Priceless...

Regards
tox

In (rec.radio.amateur.homebrew), tox wrote:

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:50:33 -0000, "Nimrod" wrote:


Pity we don't have an SEN teacher in the group- they would be
ideal to advise us on the best plan. He could draw up an IEP for him.


ROTFLMAO

Priceless Brian, Priceless...

I think it's well past time for everyone to go to Due Process on him
-- as in "killfile" and Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

--
Slow? Geological. Tectonic plates muttering about the slowpoke, that
sort of thing.
-- Michel Buijsman, in the Monastery

Once again. Mr.Reay succeeds in scoring an own-goal.....

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

If we just ignore his rude posts (or the bits of his few other posts that
are rude), the problem would go away. If he could just stop being so
rude and negative I'd happily try and help him learn.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:13:37 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:

Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

Very good points.

Having posted what appears to be on the surface a technical item
regarding the construction of capacitors for an ATU, it seems that
Bean has done no calculations whatsoever regarding the design.

Even simple back-of-the-envelope calculations would have pointed up
the the critical areas of component performance, which, together with
an appraisal of the limitations of his chosen resources, may have led
to a more realistic redesign. OTOH it may have indicated or confirmed
the correctness of his original approach. But we'll never know.

But did he respond accordingly? Instead of being an interesting
technical discussion, it has become yet another stick with which to
beat selected responders - the 'gentlemanly traditions' disappearing,
if they ever surfaced at all, very rapidly. One is left with the
strong impression that the original posting wasn't meant to be a
technical discussion at all, and another poster's comment elsewhere
about 'the cycle repeats' appears very apposite.

I note that you have already mentioned what could well be the achilles
heel of Bean's choice of components, and one which I was trying to
gently steer him to in my initial contribution. But it seems that it
is more fun to wield the stick rather than undertake any real design
studies. Ah well.
--
from
Aero Spike

"Spike" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:13:37 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:

Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he
can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management.

Very good points.

Having posted what appears to be on the surface a technical item
regarding the construction of capacitors for an ATU, it seems that
Bean has done no calculations whatsoever regarding the design.

Even simple back-of-the-envelope calculations would have pointed up
the the critical areas of component performance, which, together with
an appraisal of the limitations of his chosen resources, may have led
to a more realistic redesign. OTOH it may have indicated or confirmed
the correctness of his original approach. But we'll never know.

But did he respond accordingly? Instead of being an interesting
technical discussion, it has become yet another stick with which to
beat selected responders - the 'gentlemanly traditions' disappearing,
if they ever surfaced at all, very rapidly. One is left with the
strong impression that the original posting wasn't meant to be a
technical discussion at all, and another poster's comment elsewhere
about 'the cycle repeats' appears very apposite.

I note that you have already mentioned what could well be the achilles
heel of Bean's choice of components, and one which I was trying to
gently steer him to in my initial contribution. But it seems that it
is more fun to wield the stick rather than undertake any real design
studies. Ah well.

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.

I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

Brian Reay wrote:



All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.

I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

Yes, it's called Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD).

Google will give you all the info.

Micky

--
E&OE (C) 2005 Micky Taker
Micky Taker accepts no responsibility for any personal injury or
emotional distress that may occur as a result of reading the contents of
this message.

Once again Mr.Reay has published something that has come home
to roost at his home. Remember the following bull**** from
yesterday?.....

"Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
Standard behaviour management."


"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.
I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

Once again, Mr.Reay is brandishing his card with
the "insecurity" sneer upon it.

That Mr.Reay feels the need to repeatedly initiate
personal remarks of an aggressive character, personal
remarks that cannot be taken as "debate / discussion at
a technical level", would seem to suggest that it is Mr.Reay
who is insecure, do you not think?

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

All signs of insecurity. If Gareth was sure of himself he could debate /
discuss at a technical level. I can't ever actually recall him doing this.
I'm sure there will be a name for his condition, probably even treatment.

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
: can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
: only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
: Standard behaviour management.
said m3osn....


how do you spell NONSENSE anyway ?

"Brian Reay" wrote:

: Part of the problem is that people will respond to his rudeness, if you
: can't ignore it kill file him. He does it to disrupt the group and he can
: only do so IF WE LET HIM. If we don't let him he can't disrupt the group.
: Standard behaviour management.

youve been reading LORD OF THE FLIES again.

havent you ?

ZZZPK wrote:
youve been reading LORD OF THE FLIES again.

Heh, heh, after presenting the play, "Annie", this year
(I was FDR) the Madison County Arts Council asked for ideas
on a play for next year that would employ a bunch of kids.
I suggested, "Lord of the Flies", which met with a very
cool reception. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:31:40 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:
I suggested, "Lord of the Flies", which met with a very cool reception. :-)
Didn't Texas send that as a road show to D.C.?

Did you notice the word "amature" in the newsgroup title? You might want to
consult a dictionary for the definition of that word.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
Engineers who are driven by
such a penny pinching approach usually end up bankrupting their company as
their products are poor.


--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

Right you are, Mr. bean. Some individuals can't seem to separate their
personal from their business lives. They need to assign a dollar value to
everything. Many of these people, when not at work, do nothing as they
dismiss most leisure time activities as an inefficient waste of man-hours.

"Airy R.Bean" wrote in message
...
You don't seem to have the qualities that makes
for a _REAL_ Radio Ham, OM!

There are no labour costs when you do things for yourself!

There are no machining costs in cutting up a CD with a pair of scissors.

"CW" wrote in message
...
Did you notice the word "amature" in the newsgroup title? You might want
to
consult a dictionary for the definition of that word.


No. But, then again, it isn't there so I wouldn't have.

If you meant amateur, that work doesn't not mean 'bodger'. Just because you
are doing something for fun is no excuse not to do it well.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:

doing something for fun is no excuse not to do it well.

Hi OM,

The Calvinists left Britain to form the Puritans in the new world more
than 300 years ago (of course, many stayed behind to sulk during the
Restoration). Did you miss the boat?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:

doing something for fun is no excuse not to do it well.

Hi OM,

The Calvinists left Britain to form the Puritans in the new world more
than 300 years ago (of course, many stayed behind to sulk during the
Restoration). Did you miss the boat?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Well Richard, over the years I'm met many Americans (I am pleased to say).
I've always though they sought to do things well- even within their hobbies.
Clearly, you are the exception.

--
Brian Reay
www.g8osn.org.uk
www.amateurradiotraining.org.uk
FP#898

A couple of days ago Mr.Reay published a homily on the
undesirability of uttering rude remarks and the way in which
such remarks foment ill-feeling in the NG.....

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0000, "Brian Reay"
wrote:
doing something for fun is no excuse not to do it well.
The Calvinists left Britain to form the Puritans in the new world more
than 300 years ago (of course, many stayed behind to sulk during the
Restoration). Did you miss the boat?
Well Richard, over the years I'm met many Americans (I am pleased to say).
I've always though they sought to do things well- even within their
hobbies.
Clearly, you are the exception.