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  #121   Report Post  
Old October 18th 18, 05:48 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:32:01 +0100, Custos Custodum
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 17:01:33 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 20:55:22 +0100, Custos Custodum
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:00:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Much of the stuff I fix was sent
to me after some ham attempted to fix it themselves. Usually, they
won't admit it. On the repair bench right now is an Astron power
supply, an MFJ-259 antenna analyzer, two HP5300 series counters,


Which ones, if you don't mind my asking?

(...)
Looking around the shop, there's quite a bit of additional test
equipment that could use my attention. Most of it is not worth the
time but I do it anyway. For example, three sweep generators:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/BL-shop5.html
There also a bunch of big linear power supplies that probably need new
electrolytics. My IFR-1500 has a blown power supply that I can't seem
to fix. I thought I had it fixed in 2010, but it died again in 2015:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/IFR-1500%20Power%20Supply%20Repair/IFR-1500%20power%20supply%20repair.html

Does that answer your question?


Yes, thanks. I was curious about the counters as I have some
post-design experience of some of the later models in that range, but
yours were a bit before my time (mid-70s, IIRC). I might have been
able to help you out with hard-to-get parts.


Thank you for the offer, but right now, all the counters need are some
new knobs, caps, and contact cleaner. I can handle those. Also, this
was not a critical repair. The "customer" is one of the local hams
who wanted a "real" counter/timer so he could set the timing on some
mechanical contraption he's building. I had done quite a bit of that
with the various counters in the distant past, so I offered to give
him one of mine. That's when I discovered that all of them had
problems. So, I gave him a much better HP5315A 100MHz counter
yesterday. He's happy.

I'm looking at the 1980 HP buyers guide which shows what looks like
the entire HP5300A/B counter system and plugins. No date showing but
it certainly was before 1980. I couldn't find any printed manuals
from which to extract a date. I was using them starting in about
1973, but I'm certain they were around a few years before that. Ah,
just found the 1977 buyers guide. All of the HP5300A/B plugins are
present and accounted for. Early 1970's seems correct.

Thanks again.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

  #122   Report Post  
Old October 18th 18, 06:01 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 1,332
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On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


diversion into a side-topic snipped


It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?


By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?


Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #123   Report Post  
Old October 18th 18, 07:22 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 181
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Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


diversion into a side-topic snipped


It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?


By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?


Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?


You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.



--

Roger Hayter
  #124   Report Post  
Old October 18th 18, 07:35 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,332
Default 4NEC2?

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


diversion into a side-topic snipped


It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?


By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?


Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?


You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.


Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.

--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #125   Report Post  
Old October 18th 18, 08:12 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 181
Default 4NEC2?

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbe...ia-or-arithmop
hobia/ "How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?


You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.


Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.


You don't have to measure the brightness, you just alter and measure the
DC power to one bulb while comparing it with the RF illuminated one.


--

Roger Hayter


  #126   Report Post  
Old October 19th 18, 07:15 AM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Posts: 1,332
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On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 20:12:55 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100,
(Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbe...ia-or-arithmop
hobia/ "How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?


You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.


Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.


You don't have to measure the brightness, you just alter and measure the
DC power to one bulb while comparing it with the RF illuminated one.


Yes, that will work but will provide only a single value of RF power
that corresponds to a single value of brightness. It's also not the
way the "standard candle" works. In the standard candle, there's no
assumption that the brightness of the reference light and the measured
light will be equal. Instead, it relies on inverse square law which
basically states that if you move a light bulb twice as far away, it
will be 1/4th as bright. Move it 3 times as far away, and it's 1/9th
as bright. And so on.

Let's start with an RF powered light at some brightness level. Next
to it, I take a brighter bulb, where I know the brightness. This
light is NOT adjustable and is always the same known brightness. Now,
I move this bulb farther away until it appears to be exactly the same
brightness as the RF powered light bulb. At this point, I know:
1. The distance between the observer (me) and the RF powered light
bulb which I'll call A.
2. The distance between the observer (me) and the reference light
bulb which I'll call B.
3. The brightness of the reference light bulb which I'll call C.
4. I'll call the unknown brightness of the RF powered bulb as D.

Let's say that the observer is 2 meters away from the RF powered
light, and that the reference light is the same brightness as the RF
powered light at a distance of 5 meters. I'll assume the reference
light produced 1000 lux. Therefore, the brightness of the RF powered
light is:
1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux

Presumably, the reference light was calibrated for brightness at a
given RF level. Let's say it's 50 watts for 1000 lux. Therefore, the
RF power of the RF powered light would be:
632 / 1000 * 50 = 32 watts
Again, notice that I don't need an adjustable reference light, I don't
need a corresponding lux-watts calibration chart, and that there no
inconvenient non-linearities involved due to variations in filament
resistance.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #127   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 18, 12:21 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2018
Posts: 11
Default 4NEC2?

On 17/10/2018 16:12, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:36:45 +0000, Spike
wrote:
That's the sort of road that Liebermann wanted to take the discussion
down; an interesting topic but not the issue under discussion.


Guilty as charged. I do tend to divert discussions in directions that
I find interesting. After all, why bother writing a long rant that
nobody will read? One-line pontifications, or the all too common
SMS/chat messaging method of discussion are terminally boring, and
rarely produce anything worth reading. The lack of substantiation,
references, and detail found in such short comments offer little in
the way of an education, unless refining one's skill at delivering
insults is considered educational. I've tried to adopt a policy of
only writing and posting things that I think might be worth reading.
That which is unlikely to be of general interest, I don't bother
posting. If everyone followed such a policy, the various newsgroups
would be much more pleasant and interesting to read.

=======

+1

Frank EI7KS


  #128   Report Post  
Old October 23rd 18, 11:05 PM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Feb 2014
Posts: 180
Default 4NEC2?

On 19/10/2018 06:15, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Spike contended that a distant station cannot tell the difference
between a sending station that has been tuned up using a torch bulb and
one that has used an expensive VNA for that purpose. Via some other
topics, the discussion on the torch bulb vs VNA issue has now reached
this point:

Let's start with an RF powered light at some brightness level. Next
to it, I take a brighter bulb, where I know the brightness. This
light is NOT adjustable and is always the same known brightness. Now,
I move this bulb farther away until it appears to be exactly the same
brightness as the RF powered light bulb. At this point, I know:


1. The distance between the observer (me) and the RF powered light
bulb which I'll call A.
2. The distance between the observer (me) and the reference light
bulb which I'll call B.
3. The brightness of the reference light bulb which I'll call C.
4. I'll call the unknown brightness of the RF powered bulb as D.


Let's say that the observer is 2 meters away from the RF powered
light, and that the reference light is the same brightness as the RF
powered light at a distance of 5 meters. I'll assume the reference
light produced 1000 lux. Therefore, the brightness of the RF powered
light is:
1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux


Presumably, the reference light was calibrated for brightness at a
given RF level. Let's say it's 50 watts for 1000 lux. Therefore, the
RF power of the RF powered light would be:
632 / 1000 * 50 = 32 watts


A lamp of power or light output P has a light intensity at a point at a
distance r from it that is a function of P/4pi*r^2

Two lamps of differing power or light output, P1 and P2, and spaced
apart will have a point somewhere between them where the light
intensities are equal. At this point the distance from P1 to the point
of equal intensity is given by r1, and for P2 that distance is r2 and we
thus have the equality given by:

P1/(4pi*r1^2) = P2/(4pi*r2^2)

Simplifying:

P1/r1^2 = P2/r2^2

From which it can be seen that, if the power or light output of P1 is
known then:

P2 = P1(r2^2)/(r1^2)

If P1 = 50 units of power or light output, and r1 and r2 are 5 and 2
units of distance respectively then:

P2 = 50 * 2^2/5^2 = 50 * 4/25 = 8 units of power or light output,


Now take your equation above:

1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux

Using my notation as above, this becomes

P1/((r1/r2)^0.5) = P2

Rearranging this and separating the terms gives

P1/(r1)^0.5 = P2/(r2)^0.5

You seem to have invented the Lieberman Law of Inverse Square Roots...




HTH

--
Spike

"Nearly all men can stand adversity,
but if you want to test a man's character,
give him an internet group to manage"

  #129   Report Post  
Old October 24th 18, 08:35 AM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Default 4NEC2?

In message , Spike
writes
On 19/10/2018 06:15, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Spike contended that a distant station cannot tell the difference
between a sending station that has been tuned up using a torch bulb and
one that has used an expensive VNA for that purpose. Via some other
topics, the discussion on the torch bulb vs VNA issue has now reached
this point:

Let's start with an RF powered light at some brightness level. Next
to it, I take a brighter bulb, where I know the brightness. This
light is NOT adjustable and is always the same known brightness. Now,
I move this bulb farther away until it appears to be exactly the same
brightness as the RF powered light bulb. At this point, I know:


1. The distance between the observer (me) and the RF powered light
bulb which I'll call A.
2. The distance between the observer (me) and the reference light
bulb which I'll call B.
3. The brightness of the reference light bulb which I'll call C.
4. I'll call the unknown brightness of the RF powered bulb as D.


Let's say that the observer is 2 meters away from the RF powered
light, and that the reference light is the same brightness as the RF
powered light at a distance of 5 meters. I'll assume the reference
light produced 1000 lux. Therefore, the brightness of the RF powered
light is:
1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux


Presumably, the reference light was calibrated for brightness at a
given RF level. Let's say it's 50 watts for 1000 lux. Therefore, the
RF power of the RF powered light would be:
632 / 1000 * 50 = 32 watts


A lamp of power or light output P has a light intensity at a point at a
distance r from it that is a function of P/4pi*r^2

Two lamps of differing power or light output, P1 and P2, and spaced
apart will have a point somewhere between them where the light
intensities are equal. At this point the distance from P1 to the point
of equal intensity is given by r1, and for P2 that distance is r2 and we
thus have the equality given by:

P1/(4pi*r1^2) = P2/(4pi*r2^2)

Simplifying:

P1/r1^2 = P2/r2^2

From which it can be seen that, if the power or light output of P1 is
known then:

P2 = P1(r2^2)/(r1^2)

If P1 = 50 units of power or light output, and r1 and r2 are 5 and 2
units of distance respectively then:

P2 = 50 * 2^2/5^2 = 50 * 4/25 = 8 units of power or light output,


Now take your equation above:

1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux

Using my notation as above, this becomes

P1/((r1/r2)^0.5) = P2

Rearranging this and separating the terms gives

P1/(r1)^0.5 = P2/(r2)^0.5

You seem to have invented the Lieberman Law of Inverse Square Roots...


If you're using incandescent bulbs , the two bulbs have different
colour temperatures . The dimmer one radiates more power in the red and
infra red or "heat bands"

My good friend Mr Planck sussed this out. If you try to use your eyes to
judge brightness, the human eye spectral response causes the redder one
to look disproportionally dimmer.

I've had these sort of problems trying to simulate sunlight using
tungsten lamps. There's a further problem introduced by the area of the
lamp, which [email protected]@ers up the inverse square law. You might not have that
problem with a "pea" bulb.



Brian
--
Brian Howie
  #130   Report Post  
Old October 24th 18, 10:27 AM posted to uk.radio.amateur,rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2013
Posts: 393
Default 4NEC2?

On 24/10/2018 08:35, brian wrote:
In message , Spike
writes
On 19/10/2018 06:15, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Spike contended that a distant station cannot tell the difference
between a sending station that has been tuned up using a torch bulb and
one that has used an expensive VNA for that purpose. Via some other
topics, the discussion on the torch bulb vs VNA issue has now reached
this point:

Let's start with an RF powered light at some brightness level.¬* Next
to it, I take a brighter bulb, where I know the brightness.¬* This
light is NOT adjustable and is always the same known brightness.¬* Now,
I move this bulb farther away until it appears to be exactly the same
brightness as the RF powered light bulb.¬* At this point, I know:


1.¬* The distance between the observer (me) and the RF powered light
bulb which I'll call A.
2.¬* The distance between the observer (me) and the reference light
bulb which I'll call B.
3.¬* The brightness of the reference light bulb which I'll call C.
4.¬* I'll call the unknown brightness of the RF powered bulb as D.


Let's say that the observer is 2 meters away from the RF powered
light, and that the reference light is the same brightness as the RF
powered light at a distance of 5 meters.¬* I'll assume the reference
light produced 1000 lux.¬* Therefore, the brightness of the RF powered
light is:
¬*¬* 1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux


Presumably, the reference light was calibrated for brightness at a
given RF level.¬* Let's say it's 50 watts for 1000 lux.¬* Therefore, the
RF power of the RF powered light would be:
¬*¬* 632 / 1000 * 50 = 32 watts


A lamp of power or light output P has a light intensity at a point at a
distance r from it that is a function of P/4pi*r^2

Two lamps of differing power or light output, P1 and P2, and spaced
apart will have a point somewhere between them where the light
intensities are equal. At this point the distance from P1 to the point
of equal intensity is given by r1, and for P2 that distance is r2 and we
thus have the equality given by:

P1/(4pi*r1^2) = P2/(4pi*r2^2)

Simplifying:

P1/r1^2 = P2/r2^2

From which it can be seen that, if the power or light output of P1 is
known then:

P2 = P1(r2^2)/(r1^2)

If P1 = 50 units of power or light output, and r1 and r2 are 5 and 2
units of distance respectively then:

P2 = 50 * 2^2/5^2 = 50 * 4/25 = 8 units of power or light output,


Now take your equation¬* above:

1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux

Using my notation as above, this becomes

P1/((r1/r2)^0.5) = P2

Rearranging this and separating the terms gives

P1/(r1)^0.5 = P2/(r2)^0.5

You seem to have invented the Lieberman Law of Inverse Square Roots...


If you're using incandescent¬* bulbs , the two bulbs have different
colour temperatures . The dimmer one radiates more power in the red and
infra red or "heat bands"

My good friend Mr Planck sussed this out. If you try to use your eyes to
judge brightness, the human eye spectral response causes the redder one
to look disproportionally dimmer.

I've had these sort of problems trying to simulate sunlight using
tungsten lamps. There's a further problem introduced by the area of the
lamp, which [email protected]@ers up the inverse square law. You might not have that
problem with a "pea" bulb.


Spike has enough rope to play with already.

Jeff, like myself, tends to give idiots just enough to hang themselves.
He (Jeff), really is very good at it.




--
Always smile when walking, you never know where there is a camera ;-)

Remarkable Coincidences:
The Stock Market Crashes of 1929 and 2008 happened on the same
date in October. In Oct 1907, a run on the Knickerbocker Trust
Company led to the Great Depression.


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