On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:27:40 GMT, "George, W5YR"
wrote:

... "Theory and Problems of Transmission Lines" by
Robert A. Chipman. This is a Schaum's Outline book - mine is dated 1968.
Many professionals acknowledge that this is one of the most succinct and
revealing accounts of t-line theory to be found. Mathematical enough to be
rigorous but readable and highly useful.


Hi George,

I have notice you recommended this author several times, and yet you
have casually dismissed his rather straightforward coverage relating
to the characteristic Z of a Transmitter:
There is no need to know, since its value, whatever it might be, plays no
role in the design and implementation of the external portion of the system
driven by the transmitter.

How do you reconcile this with his coverage entitled
"9.10. Return loss, reflection loss, and transmission loss."

You may wish to observe the clearly marked figure 9-26 and
specifically the paragraph that follows (or the entire section for
that matter) that quite clearly reveals what is everywhere else
implied: that ALL SWR discussion presumes a Zc matched source. You
may observe that Chapman thus refutes your statement above. Further,
Chapman goes to some length to describe the Smith Chart's appended
line evaluation scales at the bottom to this very matter.

To substantiate this from other sources I have offered a very simple
example that shows this importance that to date has defied "first
principle" analysis (not first principles however, merely the claim of
its being practiced analytically in this regard). I will offer it
again, lest you missed it.

The scenario begins:

"A 50-Ohm line is terminated with a load of 200+j0 ohms.
The normal attenuation of the line is 2.00 decibels.
What is the loss of the line?"

Having stated no more, the implication is that the source is matched
to the line (source Z = 50+j0 Ohms). This is a half step towards the
full blown implementation such that those who are comfortable to this
point (and is in fact common experience) will observe their answer and
this answer a

"A = 1.27 + 2.00 = 3.27dB"

"This is the dissipation or heat loss...."

we then proceed:

"...the generator impedance is 100+0j ohms, and the line is 5.35
wavelengths long."

Beware, this stumper has so challenged the elite that I have found it
dismissed through obvious embarrassment of either lacking the means to
compute it, or the ability to simply set it up and measure it. It
takes two resistors and a hank of transmission line, or what has been
described by one correspondent as:
There is no institutionalized ignorance, just a
lot of skepticism regarding the reliability of the
analysis methods and the measurement methods.
Clearly a low regard for many correspondent's abilities here, and
hardly a prejudice original to me. Imagine the incapacity of so many
to measure relative power loss - a CFA salesman's dream population.

Actually it is quite obvious several recognize that follow-through
would dismantle some cherished fantasies. Chapman clearly knocks the
underpinnings from beneath them without any further effort on my part.
But then, as you offer, they would merely dismiss it by confirming
another prejudice:
its assumed low station as a Schaum's Outline book

I would point out to all, that Chapman's material dovetails with what
would have been then current research and teachings of the National
Bureau of Standards. Prejudice has "refuted" those findings too. :-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

George, W5YR wrote:
I urge anyone seriously interested in understanding transmission line theory
to include Chipman on their bookshelf.

It's out of print, George. How much will you take for yours? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Richard Clark wrote:
"...the generator impedance is 100+0j ohms, and the line is 5.35
wavelengths long."

What does the generator impedance have to do with line losses?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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"George, W5YR" wrote in message
...
If anyone is interested in really getting to the bottom of this endless
jousting, turn to page 136 of "Theory and Problems of Transmission Lines"
by
Robert A. Chipman. This is a Schaum's Outline book - mine is dated 1968.

George,

I took a course from Dr Chipman. The text he used was Adler, Chu, and Fano.
I bet he references that book.

Tam/WB2TT

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:02:40 -0400, "Tarmo Tammaru"
wrote:


"George, W5YR" wrote in message
...
If anyone is interested in really getting to the bottom of this endless
jousting, turn to page 136 of "Theory and Problems of Transmission Lines"
by
Robert A. Chipman. This is a Schaum's Outline book - mine is dated 1968.

George,

I took a course from Dr Chipman. The text he used was Adler, Chu, and Fano.
I bet he references that book.

Tam/WB2TT


Hi Tam,

It is the second reference and it is found on page 8. No doubt those
authors also understand that source characteristic Z must be equal to
transmission line Z to characterize SWR on the line. Of course, at
this point I cannot vouchsafe for that specifically, however, it seems
unlikely anyone here will negate the premise.
Except to say "t'ain't so." ;-)

I said "at this point" as this could be resolved (or from the other 11
references) by my visiting my engineering library at the U. This will
not prohibit others from denial however which simply mocks Chapman's
work and those he references.

I won't put the challenge I have offered others to you. You probably
would have answered it by now if you could have.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:58:09 -0500, W5DXP
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
"...the generator impedance is 100+0j ohms, and the line is 5.35
wavelengths long."

What does the generator impedance have to do with line losses?

Hi Cecil,

From Chapman (you following this George?) page 28:

"It is reasonable to ask at this point how, for the circuit of
Fig. 3-1(b), page 18, on which the above analysis is based, there
can be voltage and current waves traveling in both directions on
the transmission line when there is only a single signal source.
The answer lies in the phenomenon of reflection, which is very
familiar in the case of light waves, sound waves, and water waves.
Whenever traveling waves of any of these kinds meet an obstacle,
i.e. encounter a discontinuous change from the medium in which
they have been traveling, they are partially or totally
reflected."
...
"The reflected voltage and current waves will travel back along
the line to the point z=0, and in general will be partially
re-reflected there, depending on the boundary conditions
established by the source impedance Zs. The detailed analysis of
the resulting infinite series of multiple reflections is given in
Chapter 8."

The Challenge that I have offered more than several here embody such
topics and evidence the exact relations portrayed by Chapman (and
others already cited, and more not). The Challenge, of course, dashes
many dearly held prejudices of the Transmitter "not" having a
characteristic source Z of 50 Ohms. Chapman also clearly reveals that
this characteristic Z is of importance - only to those interested in
accuracy.

Those hopes having been dashed is much evidenced by the paucity of
comment here; and displayed elsewhere where babble is most abundant in
response to lesser dialog (for the sake of enlightening lurkers no
less). Clearly those correspondents hold to the adage to choose
fights you can win. I would add so do I! The quality of battle is
measured in the stature of the corpses littering the field. :-)

So, Cecil (George, Peter, et alii), do you have an answer? Care to
take a measure at the bench? As Chapman offers, "just like optics."
Shirley a man of your erudition can cope with the physical proof of
your statements. ;-)

The only thing you and others stand to lose is not being able to
replicate decades old work. Two resistors and a hank of line is a
monumental challenge.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
So, Cecil (George, Peter, et alii), do you have an answer?

Years ago, I had a discussion with Jeff, WA6AHL, here on this
newsgroup. I suggested that the impedance looking back into
the source might be Vsource/Isource, i.e. the transformed
dynamic load line. However, I have never taken a strong stand
on source impedance. If reflections are blocked from being
incident upon the source, as they are in most Z0-matched
systems, the source impedance doesn't matter since there
exists nothing to reflect from the source impedance.

My basic approach is to achieve a Z0-match and therefore
forget about source impedance.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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(Tom Bruhns) wrote in message om...
"Reg Edwards" wrote in message ...
...
By the way, you've told us only half the story. What's the value of the
load impedance which maximises the reflection coefficient?

Hey, Reg, it's just a simple high-school (well, maybe first-year
college) differential calculus problem. Just let Garvin work through
it for us. Hey, good Dr., could you do that for us? Just write an
expression for |Vr/Vf| = |(Zl-Zo)/(Zl+Zo)| in terms of Rl and Xl and
find the partial derivatives with respect to those two variables, and
set both equal to zero, while letting Ro=Xo. It's mostly just a bunch
of bookkeeping. You should come up with values of Rl and Zl in terms
of Ro, and you can check to be sure that's actually a maximum and not
a minimum or saddle point. You should see a symmetry for Ro=-Xo, the
more usual limiting case.

(Of course, that's not quite right, as I'm sure the good Dr. and Reg
both know. Since we're talking passive here, you need to insure that
Rl stays positive, so you just may need to check along the boundary
where Rl=0. And you should convince yourself that the most reactive
possible line really does yield the largest possible |Vr/Vf|. So it
becomes a task of finding the maximum value of a function f(Rl, Xl,
Xo) with Ro fixed positive non-zero, under the constraints that Rl=0
and |Xo|=Ro.)

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:18:44 -0500, W5DXP
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
So, Cecil (George, Peter, et alii), do you have an answer?

Years ago, I had a discussion with Jeff, WA6AHL, here on this
newsgroup. I suggested that the impedance looking back into
the source might be Vsource/Isource, i.e. the transformed
dynamic load line. However, I have never taken a strong stand
on source impedance. If reflections are blocked from being
incident upon the source, as they are in most Z0-matched
systems, the source impedance doesn't matter since there
exists nothing to reflect from the source impedance.

My basic approach is to achieve a Z0-match and therefore
forget about source impedance.

Hi Cecil,

That's all fine and well. It exhibits a rather standard behavior and
confirms conventional expectations. I take by this response that you
have no interest in the confirmation of interference in both Optical
and RF metaphors being visited at the bench. That is fine too. It is
a rather tough example to replicate - except when stumbled upon, then
we hear cries for exorcism being needed (my cue).

My missives simply offer touchstones of clarity in contrast to the
murky sea of un-fettered statements. We are presented with fantastic
notions that the characteristic source Z of a transmitter is
unknowable, and this statement is usually closely allied to the notion
that this same "unknowable" Z is actually responsible for reflecting
all power arriving at the antenna terminal. Few of those who utter
these witless jokes have any response to the straight line "So what is
this Z that does all that reflecting?" In their chagrin, they fail
even to repeat "it is unknowable...." Absolutely none can venture a
guess that it is either: "much less than 50 Ohms," or it is "much more
than 50 Ohms." This would be two obvious rejoinders and yet neither
is uttered. Such is faith. The universal silence condemns their
specious claims absolutely.

These absurd notions deserve a hearty laugh, because it invalidates
the need for a tuner which is purposely inserted between the source
and load to serve that very purpose (and which you describe as your
typical habit which is a nearly universal application).

But, again, this discussion is generally reserved only for those
interested in accuracy. :-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:18:44 -0500, W5DXP
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
So, Cecil (George, Peter, et alii), do you have an answer?

Years ago, I had a discussion with Jeff, WA6AHL, here on this
newsgroup. I suggested that the impedance looking back into
the source might be Vsource/Isource, i.e. the transformed
dynamic load line. However, I have never taken a strong stand
on source impedance. If reflections are blocked from being
incident upon the source, as they are in most Z0-matched
systems, the source impedance doesn't matter since there
exists nothing to reflect from the source impedance.

My basic approach is to achieve a Z0-match and therefore
forget about source impedance.

Hi Cecil,

That's all fine and well. It exhibits a rather standard behavior and
confirms conventional expectations. I take by this response that you
have no interest in the confirmation of interference in both Optical
and RF metaphors being visited at the bench. That is fine too. It is
a rather tough example to replicate - except when stumbled upon, then
we hear cries for exorcism being needed (my cue).

My missives simply offer touchstones of clarity in contrast to the
murky sea of un-fettered statements. We are presented with fantastic
notions that the characteristic source Z of a transmitter is
unknowable, and this statement is usually closely allied to the notion
that this same "unknowable" Z is actually responsible for reflecting
all power arriving at the antenna terminal. Few of those who utter
these witless jokes have any response to the straight line "So what is
this Z that does all that reflecting?" In their chagrin, they fail
even to repeat "it is unknowable...." Absolutely none can venture a
guess that it is either: "much less than 50 Ohms," or it is "much more
than 50 Ohms." This would be two obvious rejoinders and yet neither
is uttered. Such is faith. The universal silence condemns their
specious claims absolutely.

These absurd notions deserve a hearty laugh, because it invalidates
the need for a tuner which is purposely inserted between the source
and load to serve that very purpose (and which you describe as your
typical habit which is a nearly universal application).

But, again, this discussion is generally reserved only for those
interested in accuracy. :-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC